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LSR 305 and 308 discontinued.............read below

JustIntonation

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Here.. the same measurement taken from 1m on-axis, blue is gated to 5ms and red is non gated.

Btw, I wouldn't really use the term "colour the sound" as it implies adding harmonics, which is not rue in this case. This is about adding linear distortion and not non-linear.

View attachment 34960
Linear distortion is colouring the sound just as well.
And you're showing a 12dB difference at 400Hz already. Proves my point? Also if you remove the smoothing and use different sweep times you should see strong effect much higher than this as well unless your room is big +no reflective surfaces nearby + well damped in upper mid/treble.
 

Juhazi

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Justintonation, I think that you are excaggerating the effet of LSR305's shallow waveguide. Here are my measurements of it's and a bit smaller 2-way without waveguide. It is not a bit dull in my experience (in normal rooms). JBL is the upper one.
lsr305 vs tannoy o-60 8ms 16.jpg
 

Krunok

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Linear distortion is colouring the sound just as well.

No, they are not, as only amplitude of the wave is changed but not the shape.


And you're showing a 12dB difference at 400Hz already. Proves my point? Also if you remove the smoothing and use different sweep times you should see strong effect much higher than this as well unless your room is big +no reflective surfaces nearby + well damped in upper mid/treble.

I was not trying to prove or disprove your point, but to illustrate it with actual measurement. Room is big but gating is set to cut the first reflection. I wouldn't trust that 400Hz with 5ms gating, it would be better if I showed from 500Hz above.

I am using 15 sec sweep.
 

Krunok

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Simulate a square wave with a bass rolloff. The FR change alters the shape of the wave.

It does, but not in a "colour" (harmonics) adding fashion. When saying that distortion adds a "colour" to the sound it usually means adding non-linear distortion (harmonics), not linear.
 

JustIntonation

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Ah what's in a definition of a word :)
To call it colour or not. Linear distortions are almost always by far the most dominant / audible form of distortion, also in nearfield listening.
 

JustIntonation

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Justintonation, I think that you are excaggerating the effet of LSR305's shallow waveguide. Here are my measurements of it's and a bit smaller 2-way without waveguide. It is not a bit dull in my experience (in normal rooms). JBL is the upper one.
View attachment 34962
Ah missed this post earlier.
Maybe you're right.
But are you sure the LSR305 measurements are done correctly? I don't see why it would be directional <400 Hz and it seems like the 5" is directional early as well though that can be the effect of edge diffraction. Tannoy measurement looks about right though.
 

JustIntonation

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It was in a small room and by moving the mic by hand, not by rotating the speaker. Everything below 1kHz is random. Obviously mic distance varied. Sorry I can't do better measurements because I gave the speakers to my son, but others have measured it too - here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T9yLUksyFTu8DwtsaUwacoCIpRfmdIzx6vDRPjzfbCg/mobilebasic

0lwZW_qVBew52bkPSlCV1qaAkbKBtB5R5UiI1iuiOAj_WdPpuxGiDoMWLh971GWLQv8tzePMijbEQZ2vI4-cxCXmaBC8tGx_jwz9esGQTgEhGFSSjV-YZ3E37JTn7vNp0Q=s412
Aah you googled as well :)
Yes this does show a fairly dark speaker off-axis. Though I'm not sure that one is correct either, a bit much directivity in the mids for a 5" driver..
Though the off-axis is darker than the Tannoy, it is more even the Tannoy is simply bad off-axis.
 

daftcombo

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Aah you googled as well :)
Yes this does show a fairly dark speaker off-axis. Though I'm not sure that one is correct either, a bit much directivity in the mids for a 5" driver..
Though the off-axis is darker than the Tannoy, it is more even the Tannoy is simply bad off-axis.
I don't see what difference off-axis you see between the JBL and the Tannoy from those graphs though.
 

Juhazi

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I found this comparison of LSR305 vs Mackie MR5 (obviously mkII with wg)
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/monitor-field-trip-to-guitar-center.2484/

index.php


I have listened to LSR305 for a long time at several different places around my house, and never found them to sound dull. SoundOnSound review didn't find them dull either https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/jbl-lsr305-lsr308
Pros
  • Detailed and revealing sound.
  • Excellent stereo imaging.
  • More than adequate volume.
  • Surprisingly affordable.
Cons
  • The upper mids sound just a touch 'forward' to me, while the bass end of the LSR308s suffers from a little port 'overhang', but neither issue is in any way serious at this price.
 

JustIntonation

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I don't see what difference off-axis you see between the JBL and the Tannoy from those graphs though.
It would be more clear in a full polar plot. But what you see in most 2-ways without waveguide is that the mid starts beaming in its upper range and then often around 3-3.5kHz there's the crossover to the tweeter which is more omnidirectional at that freq so off axis you get a dip at the upper mids and then a peak again after the tweeter takes over (a little bit above the crossover) and then the beaming again in the upper treble of the tweeter. This is already clear in the Tannoy graph and would be more clear in a full polar plot. Neither the mid used in the Tannoy nor the tweeter behave very well in this regard btw. There are 5-6" drivers which don't start beaming untill 1.5kHz or so and then still behave fairly well till an octave higher, and there are many tweeters which behave better off-axis as well as that Tannoy tweeter.
These things are all very audible in a real situation in a room and are a large part on why similar speakers can sound very different in real life. Again a full polar plot will show this more clearly.

As for waveguide speakers, I'm not an expert on waveguides but it seems to me that the big differences become more clear at angles beyond 45 degrees off-axis, here the waveguide if big enough will pull the entire treble down not just the top. This is why they sound darker, but also good in a way if the (mid)woofer is already directional at the crossover as then the tweeter directionality at the bottom of the tweeter can match the directionality of the woofer at the crossover. Another benefit of a waveguide is that because the energy of the tweeter is more directed towards the front is that you get a higher output which means you can cross the tweeter lower.
Better in my opinion is a mid-driver which is not yet directional at the crossover freq, that means a small mid driver or mid-dome if the crossover freq is for instance 3-3.5kHz in a 3-way. Or a very good tweeter which can do <2kHz crossover and a mid-woofer which is not yet directional at that freq. You get a less dark speaker that way.
In my personal experience btw yes I'd classify the LSR305 as a somewhat dark speaker. Though again this can work to an advantage in some rooms..
 

Juhazi

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Any small monitor 2-way speaker with 5-8" woofer and a dome with or without a waveguide will have pretty similar response characteristics when measured more than 30deg off-axis. In this category are speakers like JBL LSR, Genelec Ones, Neumann, Yamaha, Mackie, Kali etc..

Deep waveguides and compression driver+horn have substantially higher DI in treble, from 1-2kHz up. These are usually wtih 10-15" woofer which also start to be directive at 500Hz. These have a characteristic "on-your-face" sound with snappy transients and sharp imaging. In this category are speakers like GedLee Summa, JBL M2 and lower models with horn , Danley Synergys, big Tannoy coaxials etc.

Then we have some cardioid and dipole designs that have high DI already from 100Hz up, KiiAudio Three, Linkwitz LX521, most panels etc.

Listening distance, speaker positioning regarding side walls and acoustic properties of the room are important. Highly directive speakers are more immune to the room being too reflective, long distance or speaker too close to side walls.

Some examples from Princeton 3d3a measurements https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity.html
(normalized to on-axis response)

Big horn coaxial - Avantgarde Solo
solo1big.jpg


Avantgarde%20Acoustic%20Solo%20H%20Contour%20Plot.png

Big 2-way with horn - JBL PRX635
JBL%20Professional%20PRX635%201.jpg

JBL%20Professional%20PRX635%20H%20Contour%20Plot.png



Small coaxial - KEF LS50
KEF%20LS50%201.jpg

KEF%20LS50%20H%20Contour%20Plot.png


Midsize 2-way - Dynaudio Xeo 3H
Dynaudio%20Xeo%203%201.jpg

Dynaudio%20Xeo%203%20H%20Contour%20Plot.png
 
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daftcombo

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It would be more clear in a full polar plot. But what you see in most 2-ways without waveguide is that the mid starts beaming in its upper range and then often around 3-3.5kHz there's the crossover to the tweeter which is more omnidirectional at that freq so off axis you get a dip at the upper mids and then a peak again after the tweeter takes over (a little bit above the crossover) and then the beaming again in the upper treble of the tweeter. This is already clear in the Tannoy graph and would be more clear in a full polar plot. Neither the mid used in the Tannoy nor the tweeter behave very well in this regard btw. There are 5-6" drivers which don't start beaming untill 1.5kHz or so and then still behave fairly well till an octave higher, and there are many tweeters which behave better off-axis as well as that Tannoy tweeter.
These things are all very audible in a real situation in a room and are a large part on why similar speakers can sound very different in real life. Again a full polar plot will show this more clearly.

As for waveguide speakers, I'm not an expert on waveguides but it seems to me that the big differences become more clear at angles beyond 45 degrees off-axis, here the waveguide if big enough will pull the entire treble down not just the top. This is why they sound darker, but also good in a way if the (mid)woofer is already directional at the crossover as then the tweeter directionality at the bottom of the tweeter can match the directionality of the woofer at the crossover. Another benefit of a waveguide is that because the energy of the tweeter is more directed towards the front is that you get a higher output which means you can cross the tweeter lower.
Better in my opinion is a mid-driver which is not yet directional at the crossover freq, that means a small mid driver or mid-dome if the crossover freq is for instance 3-3.5kHz in a 3-way. Or a very good tweeter which can do <2kHz crossover and a mid-woofer which is not yet directional at that freq. You get a less dark speaker that way.
In my personal experience btw yes I'd classify the LSR305 as a somewhat dark speaker. Though again this can work to an advantage in some rooms..
Thanks for this enlighting explanation.

So broadband speakers are always a miss?
 

JustIntonation

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Any small monitor 2-way speaker with 5-8" woofer and a dome with or without a waveguide will have pretty similar response characteristics when measured more than 30deg off-axis. In this category are speakers like JBL LSR, Genelec Ones, Neumann, Yamaha, Mackie, Kali etc..

Thanks for the clear post with polar plots.
But I do disagree. I think there are big differences. Details in those plots matter a lot I think. Yes small 2-way monitors with and without waveguides are more similar to eachother than they are to big horn systems. But still I think the differences between those small 2-way monitors are significant.
Not just because of directivity differences due to waveguides and drivers but also due to crossover point in relation to ctc spacing, the amount of roundover on the edges to reduce baffle edge diffraction, etc.
And while I'm personally all for all out room treatment to the point of near-anechoic. I do think that for less or no room treatment what is often good is at least a smooth and balanced off-axis. This is harder to achieve without a waveguide especially in a 2-way (which is a big compromise in any case) but I think if it is done right without a waveguide it's a better more balanced speaker off-axis than without a waveguide. (one will surely need a big roundover on the edges to counter baffle edge diffraction though as the Tannoy and Dynaudio plots clearly show, those are how not to do it)
 

JustIntonation

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Thanks for this enlighting explanation.

So broadband speakers are always a miss?
Sorry I don't understand what you're asking.
Are you asking if speakers which are less directional always have a non smooth off-axis? If so then the answer is no, while harder to make they can have a smooth off-axis. Key is low crossover point with small ctc distance (center to center of tweeter and mid), small mid driver, big roundover, and the right drivers (for what I can see alu or magnesium mid driver with right geometry become directional the highest).
 

daftcombo

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Sorry I don't understand what you're asking.
Are you asking if speakers which are less directional always have a non smooth off-axis? If so then the answer is no, while harder to make they can have a smooth off-axis. Key is low crossover point with small ctc distance (center to center of tweeter and mid), small mid driver, big roundover, and the right drivers (for what I can see alu or magnesium mid driver with right geometry become directional the highest).
I meant using a single full-range driver.
 

JustIntonation

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I meant using a single full-range driver.
Oh yes those are always a miss.
Not because of directivity which is room dependant and subjective perhaps if that's a good or bad thing, but they're always a miss because they will always have cone breakup (assuming full range dynamic cone drivers) and bad treble quality and fr as a result (which can't be properly corected for).
 
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