i completely agree with what you say, but i don't remember saying better. i think i said there is something there that i likejust don't say it is better
i completely agree with what you say, but i don't remember saying better. i think i said there is something there that i likejust don't say it is better
Yes, I think that whilst there is clear technical superiority to be demonstrated in many bits of audio hardware most of it is way beyond what is audible/necessary. Otherwise it would be inconceivable that anybody could consider LPs acceptable, never mind good, yet they do. The same could be said for reel-to-reel tape, it is a good step better than LP but way behind CD, both in noise, distortion and frequency response but there is a whole bunch of people paying even more ludicrously high prices for tapes than LPs, convinced of its superiority, which is demonstrably nowhere near technically but evidently good enough to convince loads of people it is better.I see no fundamental incompatibility between the objective and subjective in audio and think it is a false dichotomy.
I value measurement and think that if talking about "better" then there is truth in measurement. I also think that obsessing about measurement becomes almost another form of subjectivism once you go beyond a certain level of measured performance.
I think that DBT or at least level matched blind testing is essential to establish whether you can even discern a difference between components let alone whether one is better than the other. I would bet money that the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to discern any difference between well implemented DACs or competently designed amplifiers used within their limits in a level matched blind test. Speakers and headphones are different.
So far so objective, but how many people buy audio gear without considering the industrial design, user interface, tactile feel, confidence in brand and after sales support etc? Or just like stuff and certain brands? I see nothing wrong with this provided people are honest about it and don't try and justify their choices with the sort of florid language used by subjective reviewers. Buying something less good than alternatives just because you like it is a perfectly reasonable decision, especially in audio where it is actually quite difficult to find stuff that is genuinely bad in terms of audible performance and where it is more a question of degrees of goodness IMO.
i completely agree with what you say, but i don't remember saying better. i think i said there is something there that i like
I see no fundamental incompatibility between the objective and subjective in audio and think it is a false dichotomy.
The point that i was trying to make was, the fact that i like it and other as well +all kind of articles that that sounded serious (to someone like me, who is no expert ) that maybe there is more to it, and since i like this forum i was asking what is Amirm nd the other knowledgeable member what they think. and i received from few member complete dismissal without reading the article on the ground that the article was written on a bias from or on the ground that r2r it crape. so I didn't feel that I was getting something that I can accept and understand. later on Amirm and some other took the time to explain the flaws in the article, and it helped me understand. to tell you the truth i still think there is something to explore there maybe in (44.1/48) rage where it actually can sound different (as solderdude said ). one thing is sure it is not as simple as some people claim it to be. and i value every bit of relevant data on the subject( my personal experience included )Dont' get me wrong, but what is the point and/or shared value in posting personal preference?
The point that i was trying to make was, the fact that i like it and other as well +all kind of articles that that sounded serious (to someone like me, who is no expert ) that maybe there is more to it, and since i like this forum i was asking what is Amirm nd the other knowledgeable member what they think. and i received from few member complete dismissal without reading the article on the ground that the article was written on a bias from or on the ground that r2r it crape. so I didn't feel that I was getting something that I can accept and understand. later on Amirm and some other took the time to explain the flaws in the article, and it helped me understand. to tell you the truth i still think there is something to explore there maybe in (44.1/48) rage where it actually can sound different (as solderdude said ). one thing is sure it is not as simple as some people claim it to be. and i value every bit of relevant data on the subject( my personal experience included )
I don't know if you saw this on the top of every page in this forum so let me copy it for you :Most folks here are for the facts, not for yours, or anybody others, personal preferences.
I don't know if you saw this on the top of every page in this forum so let me copy it for you :
"WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously."
look, i maybe not an native to English, but i am pretty sure the form i wrote this was in a form of a question, an not in anyway as a statement?! 2. i was just asking to clarify if i understood amirm correctly. where i come from asking questions in forums is a good thing. and last but not least the question was not to you but to amirm, and he answered me nicely and have no problem with me or me with him, so i really don't understand how i offended you?Just refrain yourself from making statements like "so you say that r2r has nothing special? i am asking because i heard few devices that where amazing" and instead take your time to learn from other people's post and you'll keep people happy. Trust me, nobody hear wants to know about your perception of "amazing" sound. That is what people tried to tell you in their posts.
the Tento Hi-End portable R-2R should be not too expensive. i saw it used in excellent conditions on amazon.de for 220euroI am quite anxious to measure such. So thanks for posting. What is the cheapest one we may be able to buy?
Seems like another filterless NOS device.
So a matter of taste not magic or technical excellence.
It can play square-waves quite well though.
the Tento Hi-End portable R-2R should be not too expensive. i saw it used in excellent conditions on amazon.de for 220euro
https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B00NOPAL16/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=usedista
look, i maybe not an native to English, but i am pretty sure the form i wrote this was in a form of a question, an not in anyway as a statement?! 2. i was just asking to clarify if i understood amirm correctly. where i come from asking questions in forums is a good thing. and last but not least the question was not to you but to amirm, and he answered me nicely and have no problem with me or me with him, so i really don't understand how i offended you?
Hi amirMaybe you should ask someone who really understands the science (unlike the author) read it for you and tell you all that is wrong there.
SNR measured over 1 second? Who says?
Switching is bad in delta-sigma? How about switching in R2R?
Dither doesn't work? Really? There are dozens of demos on Youtube showing how dither works wonderfully and your ear doesn't need "1 second averaging" to hear its benefits.
And who is the author? I searched for Lynn Olson everywhere. I can't find a bio. Do you know if he has proper signal processing experience? If not, why on earth do you trust what he says? Did you not note things like this?
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Pay attention to the name of this forum: Audio Science Review. We have membership here who actually knows this topic and has practiced it. And you tell us to read something written for audiophiles to believe?
Don't put your guard down because you like the message. Pay attention to where something is published. And by whom. Above all, don't print a page from the Internet to show to your doctor to tell him you know more because you read that.
Back to your statement, our measurements aim to determine if a DAC does what it is supposed to do: convert digital samples faithfully to analog. That is all it is supposed to do, and all it can do. It doesn't know what music is. It doesn't know noise. It doesn't know anything. All it is given is a sequence of numbers to convert to analog. Our measurements feed it numbers and determines if what comes out of the other side are the same or different.
Furthermore, when we see deviations, we have detailed data in the form of spectrum we can use with psychoacoustics to determine audiblity. No hand waving here.
Last but not least, what you state is the latest talking point about R2R. It used to be that people were told that these are the most accurate DACs. Many people buy them because they think that is the case. To the extent our measurements show otherwise, we dismiss with that marketing myth.