About to pull the trigger unless...

[FooYatChong]

Is there any arguable reason to go R2R or multibit?

There’s an InnerFidelity video with a Bob Katz interview where he says:

R2R? Well that’s a buzzword. I can tell you that my technical rules, and my own technical knowledge of how these work, say that R2R’s are old fashioned. Going back to old fashioned isn’t necessarily better and there are good technical reasons why delta-sigma dac’s were invented. And measurements would show this by the way.

 

[Lmitchr]

R2R? Well that’s a buzzword.

Hardly, a r2r ladder is a simple and elegant way to convert a pcm formatted bit stream back to an analog voltage level. It is a completely physical mapping and certainly not a "buzzword".

It's also not old fashioned, unless you consider things like gravity old fashioned.

 

[rickyhgarcia]

I still do not own a DAC, but in the process of deciding on a model, and the reason I have been reading these forums almost daily. I have mostly tube gear, and would like a DAC that would sound great with my gear. I think that I consider a DAC a necessity these days because most music is in digital format.

DAC are computers, with no moving parts within, therefore, I guess this forum believes that good measurements is the only key to an excellent product. But then, reading the forums are comments about crooked displays, irregular fonts, replaced main boards, cheap soldering, and so on. Good measurements is just one important step to an excellent product, but the quality of the physical product is what’s determine reliability and durability of the products.

That is why I am so skeptical of all the Chinese branded products that are tested here, even when they measure well above everything else. And why the RME and Okto DACs are at the top of my list, even though they cost more. If I am wrong, I would like to be set straight, but those complains within the forums about quality is exactly the same of all the Chinese made stuff at Walmart.

I own American and British made gear, some are 30 years old, that I still use and sound great. Obviously with good care, feeding it with good electricity, maintenance, and even a visit to the shop.

 

[Mtbf]

I try to avoid gear that cannot be shut off.

I agree. Energy use isn’t even mentioned in the specs of the Chord Qutest.
But then it stays perfectly cool when not in use, so I’m sure it uses much less than my alarm clock that wakes me up every morning.
Since 2013 EU regulations demand an energy use in standby or off-mode of less than 0,5W, I presume Chord Electronics complies with these regulations.

Besides, I prefer to use this Supra switchable mainsblock for my electronic gear.

 

[Mtbf]

A serious listen (blind if possible) tells you how transparent this AD to DA conversion truly is.

In the Stereophile review of the Benchmark DAC3 Jim Austin cites John Siau, who (according to Jim) has said that he could hear a difference in sound quality only after the 17th conversion of a high quality ADC/DAC conversion loop of a recording (of an LP).
Which sounds like a nice way to test transparancy. Would be nice to know what those 17 ADC/DAC conversions would mean measurement-wise.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac3-hgc-da-preamplifier-headphone-amplifier-page-2

Remarkable good review btw, one of the very view moments a reviewer dares to state he is unable to detect an audible difference between two DAC’s. We probably still have to see this happen for the very first time in the history of the world in a review of cables...

 

[Sal1950]

That is why I am so skeptical of all the Chinese branded products that are tested here, even when they measure well above everything else. And why the RME and Okto DACs are at the top of my list, even though they cost more. If I am wrong, I would like to be set straight, but those complains within the forums about quality is exactly the same of all the Chinese made stuff at Walmart.

Fully understand your position and agree to some extent. Problems lay at the feet of impressions and what we believe to be so. Plus the fact the truths tend to change over time. With electronics, long term reviews are hard since the gear tends to go obsolete after only a few years, shorter time periods than we wish them to last.. It would be nice if reviewers would spend a bit more time addressing the quality and spec'ing of components on a board, that would give us some clue as to reliability..
Otherwise we buy what our impressions and allegiances lead us, which is not such a bad thing either.
A nationalistic approach may help to ensure your home nations economy prospers.

 

[artismo]

Thanks for everyone’s input. I ordered the RME ADI-2 direct following BurritoJustice’s post. Significantly cheaper ordering direct than from a distributor or shop here in JP.
Now to go look for the Holy Grail of HPs

 

[Mtbf]

I ordered the RME ADI-2

Congrats.

 

[Sal1950]

Now to go look for the Holy Grail of HPs

Good luck with that. Even more than speakers I think, there is a new "greatest ever, all else is gaslight" about every month if you listen to the "experts". Try to stay off that MerryGoRound. LOL

 

[THW]

Hardly, a r2r ladder is a simple and elegant way to convert a pcm formatted bit stream back to an analog voltage level. It is a completely physical mapping and certainly not a "buzzword".

It's also not old fashioned, unless you consider things like gravity old fashioned.

compared to sigma-delta, it is old fashioned unless you believe in multibit magic and poppycock.

no really though, resistor ladders have limits regarding the level of precision they can achieve.

 

[Lmitchr]

compared to sigma-delta, it is old fashioned unless you believe in multibit magic and poppycock.

no really though, resistor ladders have limits regarding the level of precision they can achieve.

Yes, but as I am sure you know, there are both clever and simple schemes to solve the precision limit issue.

The r2r implementations heard here do seem to have a more naturally musical sound quality than SD Dacs. I have never heard an SD DAC that gets close to this level of musicality.

Nevertheless, I do think the difference in SQ between most Dacs is the lowest of the digital components in the chain, perhaps because they share so many common components and designs regardless of price.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

What's the point of buying a state of the art dac with JBL LSR305's? Will the speakers resolve that? At least with headphones, you get a detailed sound that can probably detect minute differences in different dac filters. I am somehow doubtful that lsr305's would benefit from having a state of the art dac.

 

[VintageFlanker]

The r2r implementations heard here do seem to have a more naturally musical sound quality than SD Dacs. I have never heard an SD DAC that gets close to this level of musicality.

Come on...
The musicality only exists in the music, not in the gears used.
Also, the naturalness of the sound should be called transparency. At that game, DS wins hands-down.

 

[Lmitchr]

Come on...
The musicality only exists in the music, not in the gears used.
Also, the naturalness of the sound should be called transparency. At that game, DS wins hands-down.

I am sorry you can't hear the difference in the ability of various pieces of gear to reproduce music, but that's OK with me, we can agree to disagree. Over here some gear is just more enjoyable than other pieces of gear.

Call it whatever you like, but I am not talking about transparency. The natural aspect is more about the tonal details, punch and weight of the presentation.

 

[BDWoody]

Nevertheless, I do think the difference in SQ between most Dacs is the lowest of the digital components in the chain, perhaps because they share so many common components and designs regardless of price.

Back again so soon? Didn't you say it would be a couple of years? Ah well...

Perhaps they are hard to tell apart because they are all doing the job with a high degree of fidelity? Preferring altered, or incompletely reconstructed signals is certainly your right, but why promote this subjective nonsense as if it matters?

 

[VintageFlanker]

I am sorry you can't hear the difference

I am sorry you believe to.

 

[Lmitchr]

Back again so soon? Didn't you say it would be a couple of years? Ah well...

Perhaps they are hard to tell apart because they are all doing the job with a high degree of fidelity? Preferring altered, or incompletely reconstructed signals is certainly your right, but why promote this subjective nonsense as if it matters?

Are you suggesting that the difference in SINAD is inaudible?

 

[BDWoody]

I am sorry you can't hear the difference in the ability of various pieces of gear to reproduce music, but that's OK with me, we can agree to disagree. Over here some gear is just more enjoyable than other pieces of gear.

Call it whatever you like, but I am not talking about transparency. The natural aspect is more about the tonal details, punch and weight of the presentation.

Ahhh...the immeasurable therefore unchallengeable details.

I am thankful every day I got off that train of self delusion... It's a very costly ride.

 

[BDWoody]

Are you suggesting that the difference in SINAD is inaudible?

Between what and what?

 

[watchnerd]

-A/D functionality adds a few hundred $ to the price, and is not adequate for digitizing Vinyl, which for me is exactly what I would use it for.

I don't understand this comment.

Are you saying it's not adequate because it doesn't have a built in phono stage?

I've certainly digitized vinyl with mine via the RCA outs of a phono stage.

Ignore, already asked and answered.