Review and Measurements of Audio-gd NFB2 192 DAC

[Calexico]

The only way to avoid being fooled by your psychology is to do a double blind controlled test.

That's why i asked @amirm why he didn't even listened to the dac and just don't recommend it. I think he is the one that can do lot of blind tests but he don't care. And he always say we should do blind tests before speaking but he didn't ever make one. He doesn't seem so much interested in pleasure of sound. Maybe in the past some blind tests has been done but new dacs and technologies are totally different now. So that would be interesting if reviewers were doing blind test on speaker systems.
Even if you re sure of results there won't be much debates after that.

If asr just is blinded by the measurements and don't care about the sound they miss something.
It's a pitty to care only on measurements when you could miss a dac you could enjoy better.

You know how the vinyl can be good although not so good on measurements.

So why do you want to force you mind that only measurements are important?

To me measurements are only simplifying the reality and just give idea of the quality of engineering.

Best sensor is still the hear. Don't fool your mind with measurements.

Lot of people will prefer bad measurements dacs and that won't mean they re fooled.

That don't mean that science is not true to.

I don't understand goal of asr to always say that only measurements count.
If it missleads some people it'd a bad thing.

The reality is that some prefer less good measuring dacs and will still prefere them in blinded tests and asr cannot do anything to it.

 

[Calexico]

Thanks for answering to this, @Audiophonics. I believe there is no money relationship between you and Qobuz.
Still, there is some kind of partnership as you send products for review in exchange (even for free) to a mention to your website in the review. Many Qobuz readers pointed this in comments and some may see a kind of bias behind reviews (to be honest: I do). I hope you can understand this.
As I said earlier on this thread, if I like the teardrop part of products (basically 2/3 of a Qobuz review), I always do find listening tests to be pretty poor and inconsistent. Anyway...

Good point. Even if @amirm tested NFB 27.38 and 28.28 (recent both) with no great results. Why not send a 11.28 Performance to him? I think everyone here just want to be wrong and see AGD improving over time!

We could say the same with @amirm. Topping gave im dac for free to test.
I believe qobuzz and amirm are not corrupted.
They re both right in their point of view.
It would be more complete if asr could be curious like qobuzz and see that despite measurements there are differences.

 

[amirm]

That's why i asked @amirm why he didn't even listened to the dac and just don't recommend it. I think he is the one that can do lot of blind tests but he don't care. And he always say we should do blind tests before speaking but he didn't ever make one.

Have you run any of the blind tests I have asked you? Have you run *any* blind tests at all?

When people don't believe in what they ask me to do themselves, I put no weight on their requests.

So you know, I have post online more ABX tests results than anyone I know. And I know a lot of people!

Remember, we are not a bunch of fools falling for word arguments.

 

[Calexico]

Have you run any of the blind tests I have asked you? Have you run *any* blind tests at all?

When people don't believe in what they ask me to do themselves, I put no weight on their requests.

So you know, I have post online more ABX tests results than anyone I know. And I know a lot of people!

Remember, we are not a bunch of fools falling for word arguments.

Yesterday i listened to sugar ray first album.
Compared my teac p800nt cd player vs cheap ak4490 with fx tube preamp.
No need to do blind tests. I was clearly enjoying better the ak4490 +fx tube preamp.
Drums was more pleasant guitar was more rocking.
On the teac it was good but more sterile.
By the way i know lots of people wouldn't care about it but to me it's far better.
I become tired of sound faster with the teac outout.
I live alone and have nobody to switch the sources but i tried to compare lot of time.
Even sometimes i forgot i was on the teac cd player and then i checked.
But i think there are measurable differences that explain that i can detect easily the difference.
And i m pretty sure my preference is not for the best one.

 

[amirm]

It would be more complete if asr could be curious like qobuzz and see that despite measurements there are differences.

That would be fantastic if that is what they did. Sadly, no one will have any idea reading any of their reviews if there are audible differences. You continue to believe in fantasies than facing up the reality that proper listening tests are required for anything of value.

Let's make this even simpler. We all agree that speakers sound very different. Audiophiles then decide no way anything but sound would determine which speaker they like. Well, turns out even in this extreme situation, sighted tests produce completely different results than when the listener doesn't know which speaker they are listening to. From Dr. Toole and Olive's peer reviewed research paper at Canadian National Research Center:

The take first set of bars. Sighted that speaker got a score of nearly 7 on preference. Blind its score shrinks to less than 5.

If people can be so wrong when the sound difference is so dominant, what hope is there for when the differences are a fraction of speakers?

 

[amirm]

No need to do blind tests.

My case is made. Thank you.

 

[Calexico]

That would be fantastic if that is what they did. Sadly, no one will have any idea reading any of their reviews if there are audible differences. You continue to believe in fantasies than facing up the reality that proper listening tests are required for anything of value.

Let's make this even simpler. We all agree that speakers sound very different. Audiophiles then decide no way anything but sound would determine which speaker they like. Well, turns out even in this extreme situation, sighted tests produce completely different results than when the listener doesn't know which speaker they are listening to. From Dr. Toole and Olive's peer reviewed research paper at Canadian National Research Center:

View attachment 27821

The take first set of bars. Sighted that speaker got a score of nearly 7 on preference. Blind its score shrinks to less than 5.

If people can be so wrong when the sound difference is so dominant, what hope is there for when the differences are a fraction of speakers?

The truth is i prefer listening to my minimum phase slow roll.off cheap ak4490 with cheap tube fx pre buffer than to my pcm1795 based teac cd player (very well engeneered).
So i find it bad if people buy based only on specs because i know if i do so i won't be satisfied.
I always heared differences on dacs even with cheap speakers and cheap amps.
Continue fooling people but you don't work for the Music and the Sound. That's your responsibility
Ban me one more time if you want only measurement fanatics and don't like diversity in designs and point of views.
You seem only interested in enrolling people to measurements.

 

[FrantzM]

The truth is i prefer listening to my minimum phase slow roll.off cheap ak4490 with cheap tube fx pre buffer than to my pcm1795 based teac cd player (very well engeneered).
So i find it bad if people buy based only on specs because i know if i do so i won't be satisfied.
I always heared differences on dacs even with cheap speakers and cheap amps.
Continue fooling people but you don't work for the Music and the Sound. That's your responsibility
Ban me one more time if you want only measurement fanatics and don't like diversity in designs and point of views.
You seem only interested in enrolling people to measurements.

We believe you Caleixco. You have the best set of ears among us plebeians who only believe in instruments. We also know that you have the data to prove it. Please share it with us. Don't be so secretive.

 

[restorer-john]

We should be kind to Buddhism around here: the way I see it it is the only religion that advocates oversampling your life to lower noise.

Or does it just spread the same noise over a greater bandwidth and create spurious information to confuse the issue?

 

[Veri]

No need to do blind tests. I was clearly enjoying better the ak4490 +fx tube preamp.

You must realise that such statements will wildly vary from day to day, mood, song to song, there is literally nothing objective about saying "I don't need to perform an actual controlled test, the difference is ' obvious ' to me". Our auditory memory is absolutely abysmal! Are you some superman above the laws of human hearing?

For what it is, you simply gave a lazy anecdotal experience as an argument, just like pretty much every person before you in the same situation :/

 

[Calexico]

Think what you want.
I don't want to prove anything. I just want to share my experience as i never felt what asr always say.
I was hearing differences between dacs before reading forums on internet and i ve always been very exigeant with sound.
If you prefer only measurements that is your problem.
Me i prefer what I prefer without any expectations or without reading it's good or bad. If i like some dac that nobody like based on measurement or hearig I don't care. I tried lot of time to compare and always get back to what I prefer. And i don't mind if it measures less good. You cannot state freely like this that it's just mental and fooled brain. You re crazy.

 

[amirm]

The truth is i prefer listening to my minimum phase slow roll.off cheap ak4490 with cheap tube fx pre buffer than to my pcm1795 based teac cd player (very well engeneered).

There is no truth in that sadly. The only truth would be if you only used your ears to determine that, not the knowledge of what filter is there, brand, DAC chip, etc. As long as you want to continue to live in the Matrix, we can't help you with reality or the truth.

 

[amirm]

Think what you want.
If you prefer only measurements that is your problem.

Not at all. We love listening tests and I have done everything to convince you to run them properly but you refuse. So I wonder why you would value me running the same tests you don't believe in.

 

[amirm]

Me i prefer what I prefer without any expectations. I tried lot of time to compare and always get back to what I prefer. And i don't if it measures less good. You cannot state freely like this that it's just mental and fooled brain. You re crazy.

We absolutely can state that with very high confidence. I will bet you $1000 that your preference will vanish like the fart in the wind if your test was conducted without you knowing what you are listening to.

Have a loved one test you by switching the two DACs with levels matched 10 times without you knowing and report back how many times you got it right.

 

[Calexico]

Not at all. We love listening tests and I have done everything to convince you to run them properly but you refuse. So I wonder why you would value me running the same tests you don't believe in.

I say i cannot do these tests. I don't refuse. It's you that refuses to accept that it may be possible that you could enjoy bad measuring dacs. I think you don't have so good ears then you cannot even imagine that i can ear differences.
Me i've no responsability as nobody read reviews from me. It's your responsibility to give the best informations to buy best dacs.
And i'm not sure you give best advices as to my experience it s obvious that better measurement doesn't mean necessarily better sound.
And it's stupid to day everything van be emulated with a dsp on a transparent dac.
No one has proven that tube sound is enoughly good emulated.
As i already said guitarists still prefer true tube distortion as digital emulation.
If you don't hear the difference between tube emulation and true tube on guitar amp then don't go further you don't have good ears.
If you don't care about listening tests just say you give only a measurement point of view and that there are still some people that enjoy better dacs that measures less good and that you don't know why as you don't notice differences between dacs.
It would be more the reality.

 

[estuardo4]

Think what you want.
I don't want to prove anything. I just want to share my experience as i never felt what asr always say.
I was hearing differences between dacs before reading forums on internet and i ve always been very exigeant with sound.
If you prefer only measurements that is your problem.
Me i prefer what I prefer without any expectations or without reading it's good or bad. If i like some dac that nobody like based on measurement or hearig I don't care. I tried lot of time to compare and always get back to what I prefer. And i don't mind if it measures less good. You cannot state freely like this that it's just mental and fooled brain. You re crazy.

What I don't understand is why people still arguing with Calexico. He's clearly wrong and lazy to do what Amir asked him to do. Amir has years and years of experience behind him and Calexico just have anecdotes behind him. Please ignore his posts. Please.

 

[Calexico]

Not at all. We love listening tests and I have done everything to convince you to run them properly but you refuse. So I wonder why you would value me running the same tests you don't believe in.

Really i would enjoy that you could listen and see what i prefer in the sound . It's frustrating to only can speak and you cannot trust me as you don't listen what i listen.
You got to believe me.

 

[VintageFlanker]

If you prefer only measurements that is your problem.

Nope dude, that's yours. This is an objectivist, "science based" forum and you don't HAVE to be here if you don't want to. I suggest, again to check many subjectivist forums when you will be able to talk about emotional/warm sound vs digital and bright cables all night long. No offence.

 

[Calexico]

What I don't understand is why people still arguing with Calexico. He's clearly wrong and lazy to do what Amir asked him to do. Amir has years and years of experience behind him and Calexico just have anecdotes behind him. Please ignore his posts. Please.

No i m lot lazy. If i were lazy i wouldn't spend time here to try to show you that measurements aren't enough to choose a dac.
I don't sell anything i don't make reviews.
I just enjoy listening to music.
I ve got nothing to win.
It's sad that every time someone has a point of view you think either it's a troll of it's a lazy one or it's somebody fooled by obscure forums.

 

[Calexico]

Nope dude, that's yours. This is an objectivist, "science based" forum and you don't HAVE to be here if you don't want to. I suggest, again to check many subjectivist forums when you will be able to talk about emotional/warm sound vs digital and bright cables all night long. No offence.

You re not objectivists.
You just make measurement and then you subjectively say that they mean people will enjoy better good measuring dacs. (From your subjective measurements selection)