Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[tifune]

Anyone having The Ones beside the W371 instead of having them on top? I am looking for some experience before moving things around.

I'd be interested to know more; that's a very specific limitation. Hypothetically, I'd expect you could get away with it if crossover was low enough to avoid localization. But the $ value of the W371 is already questionable for a home user. unless you're trying to solve a very niche issue I suspect a sub is a better choice for you.

Psychologically, even if you get the desired result personally I could never get past spending that kind of $ and not having them setup exactly as intended. Visually, too, I suspect

 

[Fredygump]

They do seem like an Eminence,accordion is like a signature to them:


View attachment 262317


(Beta 15A)

Edit:wrong size

Just FYI, the majority of pro audio woofers look similar, since that folded surround is very common for pro audio drivers.

I have been operating under the assumption that this woofer is used to play down to ~60hz, but all the pro audio drivers that extend that low have foam surrounds. Folded surrounds are associated with rolling off at 150hz in a small-ish cabinet.

So driver choice seems to be a contradiction. They seem to be prioritizing mid range SPL/ headroom. If someone wants to remove a driver from their W371As, that would put a quick end to the speculation!

I'd be interested to know more; that's a very specific limitation. Hypothetically, I'd expect you could get away with it if crossover was low enough to avoid localization. But the $ value of the W371 is already questionable for a home user. unless you're trying to solve a very niche issue I suspect a sub is a better choice for you.

Psychologically, even if you get the desired result personally I could never get past spending that kind of $ and not having them setup exactly as intended. Visually, too, I suspect

You are correct that these are not intended as home speakers. The biggest issue someone might have is the directivity. There are measurements floating around that show that "The Ones" speakers are like audio lazer beams. Other Genelec models already had very narrow directivity, but the coaxial design has perfected it.

So these are for someone who wants the most accurate and detailed sound possible, but at the cost of having to sit in the exact right spot to get the full effect.

I have owned Genelec 8040A speakers, and they have clinical detail. The "The Ones" certainly do that even better? Some people don't like that sound; a common complain is that Genelecs lack depth. My perception is that Genelecs seem to separate the sounds of different instruments better than many other speakers, which I think is another way of saying they don't have "depth".

If I had the money, I'd be tempted! The technology is really cool, and nobody else is making anything like it. (I'm building my own version, something inspired by the W371a, but a little more living room friendly...and a bit cheaper!)

 

[Sokel]

Just FYI, the majority of pro audio woofers look similar, since that folded surround is very common for pro audio drivers.

I have been operating under the assumption that this woofer is used to play down to ~60hz, but all the pro audio drivers that extend that low have foam surrounds. Folded surrounds are associated with rolling off at 150hz in a small-ish cabinet.

There are a couple in their bass line going down to 30's-40's if we are talking about the same thing.
Both accordion:

Kappa Pro-15LF 15

Long throw, low frequency woofer recommended for pro audio in a vented bass enclosure.

eminence.com

LEGEND BP 1525 15

A 15" bass guitar driver that delivers warm, rich tone and deep bass. A big brother to the popular 10" Legend BP102, this 350 watt driver is at home in small sealed enclosures, and also works well in Pro Audio and Home Hi-Fi applications.

eminence.com

That BP1525 looks promising.But not down to the spec'd 23Hz,that's for sure.

 

[Fredygump]

There are a couple in their bass line going down to 30's-40's if we are talking about the same thing.
Both accordion:

Kappa Pro-15LF 15

Long throw, low frequency woofer recommended for pro audio in a vented bass enclosure.

eminence.com

LEGEND BP 1525 15

A 15" bass guitar driver that delivers warm, rich tone and deep bass. A big brother to the popular 10" Legend BP102, this 350 watt driver is at home in small sealed enclosures, and also works well in Pro Audio and Home Hi-Fi applications.

eminence.com

That BP1525 looks promising.But not down to the spec'd 23Hz,that's for sure.

The first one specifies in a vented enclosure. We're talking about small sealed boxes!

Did you simulate them? The published numbers are very deceptive. In a sealed cabinet the size of the W371A, they might make it down to 100hz before they start rolling off. They'll be down 12dB or more by the time they reach 60hz.

I did a lot of simulations and searching, because I was trying to match the Genelec driver. I went through the entire library in my simulation software, and I imported any that weren't already in the library. In the end the only driver that could play down to an F3 of 45hz in a small sealed box--it was the Lab 12 woofer (Or Lab 15). But it's weakness is it can't extend above 120hz! It met my requirement, barely, but it is miles away from the front driver in the W371A.

The rear driver in the W371a...that is a different animal. That is clearly a high excursion subwoofer in a vented enclosure. It is the type of driver found in big home theater subwoofers. It could play subsonics if placed in a larger cabinet with the right tuning. But the W371a is actually a pretty small cabinet considering the size of the drivers, and based on the port design, the port tuning is near 30hz. (I was informed the 23hz claimed is at something like -10hz...but that's hearsay. But the port design as shown in Genelec brochures implies the tuning is not super low.)

 

[Sokel]

The first one specifies in a vented enclosure. We're talking about small sealed boxes!

Did you simulate them?

-3db @52Hz ,-10db@33Hz in a 160 liters sealed (just saw the dimensions of Genelec).
Doesn't seem bad.

Edit:Calculated according Genelec dimensions.

 

[Fredygump]

-3db @52Hz ,-10db@33Hz in a 160 liters sealed (lust saw the dimensions of Genelec).
Doesn't seem bad.


View attachment 262407


View attachment 262409

Edit:Calculated according Genelec dimensions.

I admit these are pretty decent. They won't need much EQ to get flat response down to 50hz. Maybe I'm being picky in my requirements, but I'm causing this thread to deviate into the world of what I chose for my design...that's a bit off topic...

But the point remains that if Genelec is trying to get flat response down to 50hz, they will need to add EQ to accomplish it, reducing headroom, increasing excursion, etc. It may not be a problem in practice....

I wanted the drivers to start rolling off at my target frequency, not to have an F3 at that frequency. Then I wanted them to be only 12" to make the cabinet smaller. And while in my theory 60hz was good, I failed to have faith in my theory. So I made the front woofers play as low as possible, fearing 60hz wasn't low enough. And the result is excellent! (But still ugly. I'm working on the ugly part...)

 

[fluid]

I have been operating under the assumption that this woofer is used to play down to ~60hz, but all the pro audio drivers that extend that low have foam surrounds. Folded surrounds are associated with rolling off at 150hz in a small-ish cabinet.

The drivers have to have the correct phase relationship between each other over the range they are interacting in order to provide cancellation and directivity the front woofer does not have to play flat down to a particularly low frequency in order for this to work.

A large driver in a box provides much of the directivity all by itself. A 15" driver gives quite reasonable cardioid like response down to 300Hz. This response comes from two nulls forming at far off axis angles usually 130 to 150 degrees depending on the pattern. Look at the blue dots in the polar diagrams below, these are the deepest parts of the nulls. With the right size of cabinet this directivity created by diffraction can be controlled. Very wide band controlled directivity can be had by matching the delay of the front woofer to a side woofer together with any frequency dependent delay that comes from crossover filters. Having the cancellation come from the back limits the bandwidth somewhat but it still works in the same way.

Here is an example of a design to do what the W371A does when controlling the directivity to be cardioidish.

Front woofer alone see how it rolls off and has directivity to 300Hz

Front and back drivers together, directivity controlled to 80Hz before going omni. This is by choice not to limit output below that frequency. I cheated or was smart depending on how you look at it by using a linear phase 2nd order filter on the back woofer instead of one with group delay. The same thing can be done without the linear phase filter but is slightly less controllable.

The W371A is expensive because of the software R&D in the cardioid and null steering modes (the difficulty of this should not be underestimated) as well as the ongoing technical support that will be needed by most end users.

That is where the fairy dust and magic is, not in the basic components that you see when looking at it.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The W371A is expensive because of the software R&D in the cardioid and null steering modes (the difficulty of this should not be underestimated) as well as the ongoing technical support that will be needed by most end users.

That is where the fairy dust and magic is, not in the basic components that you see when looking at it.

Exactly.

 

[Fredygump]

The drivers have to have the correct phase relationship between each other over the range they are interacting in order to provide cancellation and directivity the front woofer does not have to play flat down to a particularly low frequency in order for this to work.

A large driver in a box provides much of the directivity all by itself. A 15" driver gives quite reasonable cardioid like response down to 300Hz. This response comes from two nulls forming at far off axis angles usually 130 to 150 degrees depending on the pattern. Look at the blue dots in the polar diagrams below, these are the deepest parts of the nulls. With the right size of cabinet this directivity created by diffraction can be controlled. Very wide band controlled directivity can be had by matching the delay of the front woofer to a side woofer together with any frequency dependent delay that comes from crossover filters. Having the cancellation come from the back limits the bandwidth somewhat but it still works in the same way.

Here is an example of a design to do what the W371A does when controlling the directivity to be cardioidish.

Front woofer alone see how it rolls off and has directivity to 300Hz

View attachment 262434
Front and back drivers together, directivity controlled to 80Hz before going omni. This is by choice not to limit output below that frequency. I cheated or was smart depending on how you look at it by using a linear phase 2nd order filter on the back woofer instead of one with group delay. The same thing can be done without the linear phase filter but is slightly less controllable.

View attachment 262435

The W371A is expensive because of the software R&D in the cardioid and null steering modes (the difficulty of this should not be underestimated) as well as the ongoing technical support that will be needed by most end users.

That is where the fairy dust and magic is, not in the basic components that you see when looking at it.

I agree it's all about the software. Is this data from the "directivity" mode"? I assume.

So it looks like the subwoofer is extending a lot higher than a typical sub, instead of the front woofer playing lower than expected So a wrong assumption on my part! That explains the narrower directivity from 100 to 500hz. If I'm not mistaken, the beam formed would follow a line between the centers of the two drivers, so angled sharply upward? I think I observed this early on in my experiments, but people I mentioned it to contradicted me.

If you are meant to be positioned within this beam, that would mean the cardiod/ steering mode only works for a near field seating position. It makes sense as they are described as stands for near field speakers. But I think it is easy to assume they are meant for mid field use due to their size.

It would be interesting to see comparisons of all the different modes. Like what is "complementary mode"? They could use the drivers completely differently depending in the other modes. They "could" push that front woofer into subwoofer territory. Other modes could produce measurements that are completely different.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I agree it's all about the software. Is this data from the "directivity" mode"? I assume.

So it looks like the subwoofer is extending a lot higher than a typical sub, instead of the front woofer playing lower than expected So a wrong assumption on my part! That explains the narrower directivity from 100 to 500hz. If I'm not mistaken, the beam formed would follow a line between the centers of the two drivers, so angled sharply upward? I think I observed this early on in my experiments, but people I mentioned it to contradicted me.

If you are meant to be positioned within this beam, that would mean the cardiod/ steering mode only works for a near field seating position. It makes sense as they are described as stands for near field speakers. But I think it is easy to assume they are meant for mid field use due to their size.

It would be interesting to see comparisons of all the different modes. Like what is "complementary mode"? They could use the drivers completely differently depending in the other modes. They "could" push that front woofer into subwoofer territory. Other modes could produce measurements that are completely different.

There is plenty of data about it on their web site.

W371A SAM™ Woofer System - Genelec.com

An absolute revelation in low frequency performance. With the W371A, you can finally wave goodbye to the detrimental influences of your room on LF reproduction.

www.genelec.com

This has loads of links showing why they aren't what fans have previously considered to be a subwoofer (and they have never claimed it to be).

There is no need for wild speculation.

The cardioid beamwidth is +/- 60 degrees to match the "ones" btw so nothing like "laser focused" somebody speculated up thread. a 120 degree total spread is a lot IMO, though very rare in the bass!

 

[fluid]

I agree it's all about the software. Is this data from the "directivity" mode"? I assume.

So it looks like the subwoofer is extending a lot higher than a typical sub, instead of the front woofer playing lower than expected So a wrong assumption on my part! That explains the narrower directivity from 100 to 500hz. If I'm not mistaken, the beam formed would follow a line between the centers of the two drivers, so angled sharply upward? I think I observed this early on in my experiments, but people I mentioned it to contradicted me.

If you are meant to be positioned within this beam, that would mean the cardiod/ steering mode only works for a near field seating position. It makes sense as they are described as stands for near field speakers. But I think it is easy to assume they are meant for mid field use due to their size.

It would be interesting to see comparisons of all the different modes. Like what is "complementary mode"? They could use the drivers completely differently depending in the other modes. They "could" push that front woofer into subwoofer territory. Other modes could produce measurements that are completely different.

What I posted is not data from a W371A but a Vituixcad simulation of two similar drivers mounted in a box in the configuration similar to what the W371 has. It was to show how you can make your own and give you an idea on how Genelec does it for the directivity mode.

The vertical lobing is only something that occurs between 130 degrees and more which is no real issue, it is just the same sort of directivity control in the vertical direction with two nulls forming the pattern. Without those far off axis dips there would not be the directivity control.

Complementary mode is just splitting the bands with an ordinary crossover between the drivers turning the Ones into 5 way speakers. Using it like this makes it seem like a really expensive midbass module and subwoofer co located together. There is no alternative within the Genelec lineup to give the midbass focused driver, so within Genelec's ecosystem that is the price if you want it.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Complementary mode is just splitting the bands with an ordinary crossover between the drivers turning the Ones into 5 way speakers. Using it like this makes it seem like a really expensive midbass module and subwoofer co located together. There is no alternative within the Genelec lineup to give the midbass focused driver, so within Genelec's ecosystem that is the price if you want it.

As I understood it they designed the 371 with drivers sufficiently far apart but one near at least on boundary - the floor - for GLM to make a realistic stab at reducing the amplitude of room modes in this configuration.
Obviously as location sensitive as ever but basically 4 spaced bass/mid drivers to control peaks and nulls, to a considerable extent, up to 500Hz if preferred over the cardioid mode.

 

[Sokel]

There is no alternative within the Genelec lineup to give the midbass focused driver, so within Genelec's ecosystem that is the price if you want it.

And it's a fair price considering that this is the weak spot for a lot of speakers (specially speaker+sud comb).

 

[fluid]

As I understood it they designed the 371 with drivers sufficiently far apart but one near at least on boundary - the floor - for GLM to make a realistic stab at reducing the amplitude of room modes in this configuration.
Obviously as location sensitive as ever but basically 4 spaced bass/mid drivers to control peaks and nulls, to a considerable extent, up to 500Hz if preferred over the cardioid mode.

Relative to the wavelengths involved the distance between the drivers is not that significant. In order for multiple sources to assist in reducing spatial variation there needs to be overlap in their frequency bands. When an ordinary crossover is used between the drivers that option is gone. There are some people who prefer to co locate the subs with the mains, that does give up some flexibility to reduce spatial variance at the lower frequencies but isn't inherently wrong.

Peaks are easy enough to deal with via EQ, nulls need a change in position, treatment or directivity to deal with. The directivity mode seems ideal for most smaller rooms particularly where treatment isn't wanted or practical. In a really big room where there is enough distance to walls complementary mode could well make more sense.

And it's a fair price considering that this is the weak spot for a lot of speakers (specially speaker+sud comb).

What's a fair price or good value is really an individual decision to make.

 

[Fredygump]

Relative to the wavelengths involved the distance between the drivers is not that significant. In order for multiple sources to assist in reducing spatial variation there needs to be overlap in their frequency bands. When an ordinary crossover is used between the drivers that option is gone. There are some people who prefer to co locate the subs with the mains, that does give up some flexibility to reduce spatial variance at the lower frequencies but isn't inherently wrong.

Peaks are easy enough to deal with via EQ, nulls need a change in position, treatment or directivity to deal with. The directivity mode seems ideal for most smaller rooms particularly where treatment isn't wanted or practical. In a really big room where there is enough distance to walls complementary mode could well make more sense.


What's a fair price or good value is really an individual decision to make.

This idea of using the 4 drivers, in this configuration, to control low frequency room modes is 100% real. The different relative positions has some effect on room modes from 60hz to 120hz, but it isn't the whole story.

The effect of different locations doesn't flatten bass response in the absence of any tuning. But I can get flat response with a little tweaking. You may not believe it, but then you haven't heard my speakers! I have used a little delay adjustment instead of using EQ, because using EQ to fix response in one part of the room hurts the response in another part of the room. And my goal is to improve the entire room.

To validate my technique, there's a video where Earl Geddes is discussing multiple subwoofers, and he says flat out he doesn't care where the subwoofers are located. He says EQ or delays work; he prefers EQ and he developed a program to determine EQ settings. But I don't have that program. Instead I have REW, which has a tool to calculate delays.


I don't think we've figured anything out yet in this discussion. You are focusing on the benefit of directivity, but I am skeptical about it's usefulness in a typical small room. I experimented with it, and the results were inconclusive. I know it was working, because the nulls were in the right spots. But the frequency response wasn't better. Decay times weren't better. I don't think that directivity is the way to improve low frequency response in a typical small room. (This is with the caveat that there may be a small zone in the near field where bass response is improved. I think I observed it while experimenting, but it was not worth pursuing, since my use case does not include sitting at a desk in the near field.)

If we could simulate the directivity with boundary effects of a small room, that would be interesting. (I'm not able to do that.) I was not able to find a benefit through experimentation, but maybe a simulation would reveal something that I missed? But I'm sure a simulation of this directivity won't be as neat as the diagrams in their promotional materials.

 

[fluid]

This idea of using the 4 drivers, in this configuration, to control low frequency room modes is 100% real. The different relative positions has some effect on room modes from 60hz to 120hz, but it isn't the whole story.

I'll try and explain differently. Four drivers in the configuration of the W371A can be used as four separate bass sources so long as there is an overlap in their operating range. This is not the case if a traditional crossover is used, there is no zone for the two sources to be equalized separately and have any real effect on the spatial variance in bass frequencies. In Earl's own setup he lets the 15" drivers in the main speakers run full range using just the natural sealed enclosure roll off. This allows them to be equalized separately from the subwoofers and contribute in the areas where they overlap.

The effect of different locations doesn't flatten bass response in the absence of any tuning. But I can get flat response with a little tweaking. You may not believe it, but then you haven't heard my speakers!

I honestly have no idea what you did and I don't believe it is relevant to a review of a W371A.

But I don't have that program. Instead I have REW, which has a tool to calculate delays.

Then perhaps you have not heard of Andy C's Multi Sub Optimizer
https://www.andyc.diy-audio-enginee...ptimizer (MSO),at the main listening position.

I don't think we've figured anything out yet in this discussion. You are focusing on the benefit of directivity, but I am skeptical about it's usefulness in a typical small room. I experimented with it, and the results were inconclusive. I know it was working, because the nulls were in the right spots. But the frequency response wasn't better. Decay times weren't better. I don't think that directivity is the way to improve low frequency response in a typical small room. (This is with the caveat that there may be a small zone in the near field where bass response is improved. I think I observed it while experimenting, but it was not worth pursuing, since my use case does not include sitting at a desk in the near field.)

I tried to help you understand how the speaker works as you had some ideas that were far off the mark. I can't comment on what worked or didn't for you and I don't think this is the place to get into it further.

Directivity is useful in small rooms to avoid some of the effects of boundary interference. The wall behind the speaker in many instances is at a distance that causes interference at frequencies that can be hard to treat with absorbers. Avoiding sound being sent to the wall behind causes less interference which is seen in the 150 to 500Hz range in general. Genelec have a good document on placement that explains this with images. Null steering lets the directivity be moved to where it is most beneficial to help in spatially challenged setups.

Directivity is one option to which there are others, what is right for one person may not be right for another as they will have different constraints and challenges.

If we could simulate the directivity with boundary effects of a small room, that would be interesting. (I'm not able to do that.) I was not able to find a benefit through experimentation, but maybe a simulation would reveal something that I missed? But I'm sure a simulation of this directivity won't be as neat as the diagrams in their promotional materials.

It is possible with BEM and I have done it to a basic extent with a single wall
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8c-review.21016/post-990590

 

[Fredygump]

I'll try and explain differently. Four drivers in the configuration of the W371A can be used as four separate bass sources so long as there is an overlap in their operating range. This is not the case if a traditional crossover is used, there is no zone for the two sources to be equalized separately and have any real effect on the spatial variance in bass frequencies. In Earl's own setup he lets the 15" drivers in the main speakers run full range using just the natural sealed enclosure roll off. This allows them to be equalized separately from the subwoofers and contribute in the areas where they overlap.

I honestly have no idea what you did and I don't believe it is relevant to a review of a W371A.

Then perhaps you have not heard of Andy C's Multi Sub Optimizer
https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/index.html#:~:text=Multi-Sub Optimizer (MSO),at the main listening position.


I tried to help you understand how the speaker works as you had some ideas that were far off the mark. I can't comment on what worked or didn't for you and I don't think this is the place to get into it further.

Directivity is useful in small rooms to avoid some of the effects of boundary interference. The wall behind the speaker in many instances is at a distance that causes interference at frequencies that can be hard to treat with absorbers. Avoiding sound being sent to the wall behind causes less interference which is seen in the 150 to 500Hz range in general. Genelec have a good document on placement that explains this with images. Null steering lets the directivity be moved to where it is most beneficial to help in spatially challenged setups.

Directivity is one option to which there are others, what is right for one person may not be right for another as they will have different constraints and challenges.

It is possible with BEM and I have done it to a basic extent with a single wall
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dutch-dutch-8c-review.21016/post-990590

I think it is a common misunderstanding to assume all 4 drivers need to play down to 20hz. I also assumed this was the case when I started out, but I have found that it works better if the front drivers roll off at ~50hz.

So yes, there are 4 low frequency drivers that "can" overlap sufficiently. Genelec would have to use EQ to push the front driver to go a little lower than I assume it naturally extends down to. It isn't hard to do, and presumably the driver has enough headroom to handle this adjustment. But I said this before....


In other forums, and likely in other parts of this forum, the resounding opinion, bordering on religious belief, is that directivity is irrelevant below 500hz, because the room dominates the modes.

I have committed myself to not taking a firm position. I am open to the possibility, but experimentally I found no clear benefit. I said "inconclusive"!

 

[onion]

My impression from reading this thread is that anyone who has heard the 'W371a + Ones' is subjectively better compared to 'Genelec Sub(s) + Ones'. Is that correct? I wonder if this is due to superior freq response in the 150-500Hz range or bass directivity or both.

For those that have heard it, what type of room and listening position?

 

[Godataloss]

Here are Genelec’s:
View attachment 128697

Seems like you could not use this speaker system without these units.

 

[Purité Audio]

When I went to Genelec in London I was told that the W371a’s are useful when the main monitors aren’t in the preferred ‘less than 60cm more than 3 metres placement’.
They recommended 2x8316, 2x w371 and then two ‘normal’ subs for the low end.
Keith