QSC Q-SYS for loudspeaker management

[radeon]

Playing back high resolution or HDR video content or lossless atmos/DTS:X content from a PC is in short, a shitshow.

Typical streaming services have many continually changing hoops on what PCs are allowed to stream 1080p or 2160p content. You are not guaranteed to get 4k content- I struggled to get Netflix to stream 4k to my htpc and then gave up and am using my TV app instead.
HDR like dolby vision or HDR10+ just does not work on general purpose PCs - i believe the underlying hardware needs to be licensed, so it will work when you use a laptop and the laptop and its display are licensed and certified, or you use a mac mini and a pro-res display. but random configs or DIY PCs are excluded.

High resolution audio cannot be decoded on PC. Jriver can decode TrueHD (lossless dolby) but not DTS:MA. Nothing on PC can generate atmos channels from TrueHD when streaming videos (dolby reference player can do this for local stored audio). VoidX's Cavern can generate atmos from local playback of lossy dolby, but not from truehd.

The easiest option is to bitstream undecoded audio to an AVR which does decoding, spatial audio generation, etc. - so you cant do any PC based DSP.
I suspect in @mdsimon2 's case the atv4k is outputting lpcm streams and no atmos is involved.

Thanks for your thoughts this is super helpful to hear your experiences.

True that dolbyvision cannot work, but I think I finally have HDR setup properly with windows 11, and it seems to function quite well and I get HDR+atmos content on netflix. I think there is even a build of VLC that might be able to do a realtime conversion of dolbyvision to hdr. But it's not ideal... and the loss of atmos in trueHD is also not good, I did not know about this.

Maybe you could take the digital outputs from this and feed it back into a PC as digital? Does atmos survive a trip through Dante?

Arvus 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Analog

H2-4D is the world's first 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Balanced Analog. Now Selling

www.arvus.com

You would skip an entire A/D and D/A cycle if someone could figure out how do do the media playback and dsp on one device.

I'm using an Ashly Protea 24.24M now and considering the Q-SYS Core 110f v2, but would be better to just get rid of all externals DSPs and do it all on PC + Topping DM7's

 

[tehas]

True that dolbyvision cannot work, but I think I finally have HDR setup properly with windows 11, and it seems to function quite well and I get HDR+atmos content on netflix. I think there is even a build of VLC that might be able to do a realtime conversion of dolbyvision to hdr. But it's not ideal... and the loss of atmos in trueHD is also not good, I did not know about this.

Agreed, basic HDR works well on windows. I only got even lossy (DD+) atmos to work by bistreaming to avr though - can you tell me more about your setup on getting atmos from netflix?

Also apologies if i came off a bit angry earlier, i've wasted too much of my own time on PC based streaming, so there's some pent up frustration there

Maybe you could take the digital outputs from this and feed it back into a PC as digital? Does atmos survive a trip through Dante?

Arvus 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Analog

H2-4D is the world's first 16 channel Dolby ATMOS HDMI decoder to Dante, Ravenna, AES/EBU and Balanced Analog. Now Selling

www.arvus.com

You would skip an entire A/D and D/A cycle if someone could figure out how do do the media playback and dsp on one device.

Yup, I have my eye on this. This is priced over 4k though, so well out of my budget.
Their newsletter https://www.arvus.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95609066/230125_arvus_newsletter_01.pdf though talks about the H1-D which is HDMI -> AES67/Dante which will be perfect for sending decoded audio to a PC followed by the topping DM-7s

Announcing H1-D (H2-4D’s smaller sibling)
• HDMI to Dante / AES67 only.
• Small (similar formfactor to the Apple4K)
• Price well under USD3k including freight
• Performance and GUI will be identical to H2-4D.
• eARC / HDMI Pass-through will be supported.
• Samples ready for testing around April
• Aiming for the first Beta Run to be completed December 2023.
• Given the rate of Atmos adoption across in the entire audio market, we can see that this unit
could be a great seller.
• Further information to be released in coming newsletters.

The question for me will be how much under 3k it will be
The atmos channels should just appear as independent channels on dante I expect.

Another idea I've toyed with is Weeb labs's method here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-dirac-and-service-manual.28504/#post-990177 -- basically get the decoded atmos out of the digital inputs to the DAC of an AVR, and send it over SPDIF to some DSP box in a digital form.
I haven't braved up to risk the 1.5k ish worth of AVR on this though

 

[radeon]

Agreed, basic HDR works well on windows. I only got even lossy (DD+) atmos to work by bistreaming to avr though - can you tell me more about your setup on getting atmos from netflix?

Also apologies if i came off a bit angry earlier, i've wasted too much of my own time on PC based streaming, so there's some pent up frustration there


Yup, I have my eye on this. This is priced over 4k though, so well out of my budget.
Their newsletter https://www.arvus.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95609066/230125_arvus_newsletter_01.pdf though talks about the H1-D which is HDMI -> AES67/Dante which will be perfect for sending decoded audio to a PC followed by the topping DM-7s

Announcing H1-D (H2-4D’s smaller sibling)
• HDMI to Dante / AES67 only.
• Small (similar formfactor to the Apple4K)
• Price well under USD3k including freight
• Performance and GUI will be identical to H2-4D.
• eARC / HDMI Pass-through will be supported.
• Samples ready for testing around April
• Aiming for the first Beta Run to be completed December 2023.
• Given the rate of Atmos adoption across in the entire audio market, we can see that this unit
could be a great seller.
• Further information to be released in coming newsletters.

The question for me will be how much under 3k it will be
The atmos channels should just appear as independent channels on dante I expect.

Another idea I've toyed with is Weeb labs's method here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-dirac-and-service-manual.28504/#post-990177 -- basically get the decoded atmos out of the digital inputs to the DAC of an AVR, and send it over SPDIF to some DSP box in a digital form.
I haven't braved up to risk the 1.5k ish worth of AVR on this though

This guy is claiming atmos decoding in jriver to 16 channels: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132607.msg920704.html#msg920704

I dont think there is any way to get non lossy atmos from netflix ever. Even on the TV netflix app, it always going to be DD+ atmos. Same for 4K i think, its roughly the same number of films availible in 4K between pc and tv app. Once propertly setup with HDR, the only main difference between the PC Netflix and TV Netflix is the loss of dolbyvision.

I just tested the dolby reference player and it can't play MKV files, so that's a non-starter for me. And even if it does TrueHD, youre saying Dolby Reference Player can't do atmos?

The weeb lab's method you posted is amazing, and I have a marantz 7706 already to try it on, but how would you then decode multichannel SPDIF? Multiple dacs? The whole point of this process(for me at least) is to use the super high quality DACs in a Topping DM7, and to use a PC for the DSP.

If I have to go through another external DSP then I might as well stick with my ashley.

Another option is the JBL SDP-55. It does Dante out.

There has to be a better way.....this whole thing should be a software solution, its absurd that you have to pay Arvus over $4000USD just for the privledge of feeding the signals back into your pc into two topping dacs.

Thats like a $10,000 solution. Might as well just buy a Datasat or Storm Audio processor....
Never thought I would say that trinnov is starting to look like a good deal......

 

[mdsimon2]

You will never be able to use more than one Topping DM7 as it has no clock sync functionality. There are other DACs / interfaces that can be synced.

Michael

 

[tehas]

This guy is claiming atmos decoding in jriver to 16 channels: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132607.msg920704.html#msg920704

I just tested the dolby reference player and it can't play MKV files, so that's a non-starter for me. And even if it does TrueHD, youre saying Dolby Reference Player can't do atmos?

So if I've understood correctly, the jriver thread isnt claiming to decode atmos (by which i mean generate the atmost audio) in jriver - it is simply playing back the extra tracks (say upto 16 channels) through jriver. Something else actually has to do the generation. That's where DRP comes in, and it requires a complicated workflow of unpacking the audio out of the mkv, running it through DRP and then re-packing the mkv.
Also, I'm saying DRP is the only way that I know of to generate atmos out of trueHD on a mac/windows.
The computer audiophile thread is well worth going through - there's 3 or 4 separate articles about this on CA.

How To Decode and Play Dolby TrueHD Atmos on Windows and macOS

Yes, you read the title correctly. Here is a little background and all the information you'll need to decode and play lossless Dolby TrueHD with Atmos on a Windows or macOS computer, without the need for HDMI output. Housekeeping There are two codecs used with Dolby Atmos content. Lossy - Dolby D...

audiophilestyle.com

The examples that el-guapo on the jriver form mentions are more thoroughly detailed in the CA threads

I dont think there is any way to get non lossy atmos from netflix ever. Even on the TV netflix app, it always going to be DD+ atmos. Same for 4K i think, its roughly the same number of films availible in 4K between pc and tv app. Once propertly setup with HDR, the only main difference between the PC Netflix and TV Netflix is the loss of dolbyvision.

Can you tell me more about your setup? Netflix PC App -> Decode DD+ Atmos (how?) -> ?

Holy crap the weeb lab's method you posted is amazing, and I do have a spare AVR to try it on, but how the heck would you then decode multichannel SPDIF? The whole point of this process is to use the super high quality DACs in a Topping DM7, and to use a PC for the DSP.

You already have the decoded audio as PCM ! use this from audiophonics to convert to SPDIF: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...rs-spdif-bnc-wm8805-24bit-192khz-p-12561.html and then an SPDIF interface on the PC eg https://www.rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
This should get 8 channels. For more you might have to find an ADAT encoder.
OR here's an I2S to AES encoder https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...u-xlr-110-ohm-for-amanero-wm8805-p-11488.html
use that and a lynx card for AES I/O - https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/aes16e/
so,
AVR Pre-DAC I2S (all channels decoded, inc atmos) -> i2s to AES card, 1 per 2 channels -> lynx pcie card -> PC DSP Software -> lynx pcie card -> DAC input as AES. or USB pc interface like a topping dm7 or something else that permits usb sync (motu mk5?)

 

[radeon]

Can you tell me more about your setup? Netflix PC App -> Decode DD+ Atmos (how?) -> ?

Sorry for the confusion, I'm not decoding DD+ on the pc, it's bitstreamed to the marantz at the moment. I'm trying to figure out how to remove the marantz from the system, and ideally also removing the external dsp.

I think Kodi has a netflix plugin that might be able to decode DD+, or maybe jriver? I can switch over to the TV app if I really want DD+ and DolbyVision.

The main point of this is to get the best possible theater experience using the best DACs, which wouldnt be using DD+. Only TrueHD with Atmos and DTS:MA. Or at the very least, just TrueHD with Atmos.

I have looked at the Computer Audiophile article, and it seems to be only for audio. Like extracting an atmos audio recording from a concert blueray...

If you can find any links to syncing up DRP atmos into a video please let me know. That workflow sounds like a pain in the butt though. Once I have the "re-packing the mkv" fininshed, I am trying to figure out how do I actually play that MKV? DRP does not support mkv.

The atmos channels should just appear as independent channels on dante I expect.

This part I don't quite understand how it works.

The way I understand it, Atmos is object based audio, not channels. Your AVR spatializes it and decodes the object based audio depending on the number of speakers that you have in your system, and maybe the distances and sizes that you have set each speaker to(not sure about this)

Would the Arvus unit just assume that you have all 16 channels for the atmos decode? I suppose it wouldnt be the worst thing in the world. With enough DSP power I guess you could create phantom speakers.... but I'm not sure it would be better than Atmos's spatialization engine.

You will never be able to use more than one Topping DM7 as it has no clock sync functionality. There are other DACs / interfaces that can be synced.

Michael

Does sync really matter? I don't think PC audio really goes out of sync, but im not sure. Using DirectSound or Wasapi or asio?

Well, based on what I am hearing in this thread I am thinking of cancelling my Topping DM7 order and maybe just ordering a new Nvidia Shield with DolbyVison support.... Then maybe soldering to the AVR to get AES/SPDIF into a PC at a later date....

Seems alot cheaper than the Arvus, and you get hdmi switching functionality.

You already have the decoded audio as PCM ! use this from audiophonics to convert to SPDIF: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...rs-spdif-bnc-wm8805-24bit-192khz-p-12561.html and then an SPDIF interface on the PC eg https://www.rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
This should get 8 channels. For more you might have to find an ADAT encoder.

Interesting! That RME seems to be optical only though, and the I2s card gives you a classic SPDIF signal on a 75 Ohm BNC connector. Is there another RME that can take RCA/bnc spdif?

And the RME is only 4 channel input, so you would need 4 of the RME things to get all 16 channels if your modded AVR supports it. Are there any sync issues with using multiple rme spdif capture devices?

 

[beeface]

I use Q-SYS DSPs at work. Never really considered using them in a residential setting, but since JBL have used BSS/Crown DSPs for speakers like the M2, I suppose it isn't an entirely farfetched idea

 

[radeon]

I use Q-SYS DSPs at work. Never really considered using them in a residential setting, but since JBL have used BSS/Crown DSPs for speakers like the M2, I suppose it isn't an entirely farfetched idea

Another option instead of the q-sys if you want something with better D/A converters: https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/galaxy-32-synergy-core/

 

[mdsimon2]

Does sync really matter? I don't think PC audio really goes out of sync, but im not sure.

If you have two USB DACs that are running on their own clock they will go out of sync rather quickly. At least in Mac there are ways to correct for clock drift by resampling that should be good enough for home theater purposes but definitely not mid / high frequency crossover applications. I quantified some of this here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...vice-i-need-ca-25-ms-delay.40051/post-1411908. I wouldn't personally do it when there are so many other options that can maintain clock sync or do 16 channels natively.

Interesting! That RME seems to be optical only though, and the I2s card gives you a classic SPDIF signal on a 75 Ohm BNC connector. Is there another RME that can take RCA/bnc spdif?

It is trivial to convert from coaxial SPDIF to TOSLINK SPDIF.

And the RME is only 4 channel input, so you would need 4 of the RME things to get all 16 channels if your modded AVR supports it. Are there any sync issues with using multiple rme spdif capture devices?

When used in SPDIF mode the RME has 4x stereo TOSLINK inputs which gives you 8 channels. The manual has a detailed explanation of the various clocking options, one of which is for the RME to be slaved to an input clock signal.

Just my 2 cents but I think you might be in a bit over your head at the moment. Hacking an AVR and dealing with multichannel I2S is not trivial. When I used those Audiophonics I2S boards I needed a clock buffer to get them to work. Probably best to do a lot more research about what the potential issues are and how to deal with them.

Michael

 

[radeon]

Based on my tests today, even if you could do this(replace an AVR with a PC), I don't think you should. Unless there is something wrong with my testing methodology, I think using balanced Pre-Outs from even a cheap AVR like a Marantz 7706 sounds a bit better than doing this super complicated stuff and going through a topping. To be honest I'm a bit surprised, as I was under the impression that the DACs in the Topping DM7 would be much better than the crap in the Marantz that got all the horrible reviews on this site.

Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC Review

there are some options starting from 650, for example https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=42843 I use 12" V2, balanced The monoprice together with the XTZ edge are the only options that come to my mind and both are ported. People could build a sealed sub and use a PA amp that usually...

www.audiosciencereview.com