Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[Vacceo]

Of course they could always sell ART for PC's where ample processing power exists to run it correctly. And we're hitting on another reason why I never want to buy an AVR: The planned obsolesence manufacturers build into them via their business model.

The problem on PC is still on the decoding side, and that's not something Dirac can change.

I'd love to be able to easily use PC software capable of decoding DTS and Atmos, but that's a different matter.

With that, we'd just need a a rack of DAC's and off you go.

 

[Music707]

I don't know that there is any additional processing power required for DLBC in the first place. More available channels sort of but it wouldn't necessarily use more filters than DL and the actual calculations are done in the cloud not on a processor.

To be clear, I don't think there is any way we see low end and midrange makers release ART in 2024. I am more expecting it from the ones that have already done the development work for DLBC. Like Arcam/JBL, Monoprice, etc. They are probably in the best position to get it done.

And yeah nobody is going to retrofit it to ancient hardware either. What I was replying to was the idea that only the PC based processors could handle ART. But no, no increase in hardware specs over current processors is required.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree that we will need a lot of patience before we see additional AVRs with ART and I agree to your candiates. But my hopes are mostly founded on the fact that said manufacturers have shown to care to make Dirac progress available in the past, not so much because having implemented BC would give them a considerable head start in the ART implementation. From the information I gathered about ART so far, ART requires much more implementation effort than BC.

 

[Music707]

And that's what I find concerning. Manufacturers only seem to be interested in providing ART as a means to sell a new Gen of AVRs.



Imo a multichannel license for dirac on a PC is not really what most of the people want.

Ah, I see. In a sense you are concerned for AVR manufacturers to be what and/or how they are. Valid point.

Given the seeming challenges of implementing ART it might be a smart move by manufacturers not to announce an implementation early if the process of implementing takes e.g. 1-2 years. I can easily imagine many "VAPORWARE !!!" cries.

 

[hmt]

That was my point from the start. The business model of dirac seems not really to be compatible with that of the manufacturers. Dirac wants to sell licenses, the manufacturers want to sell AVR every 2 years.

 

[HoJ76]

Will Dirac Active Room Treatment come to minidsp, for example to flex?

 

[hmt]

No one knows but I suspect no. Appart of the DDRC88 the minidsps only have 2 dirac channels. The DDRC88 did not even get DLBC. Unfortunately.

 

[Spocko]

I don't know that there is any additional processing power required for DLBC in the first place. More available channels sort of but it wouldn't necessarily use more filters than DL and the actual calculations are done in the cloud not on a processor.

To be clear, I don't think there is any way we see low end and midrange makers release ART in 2024. I am more expecting it from the ones that have already done the development work for DLBC. Like Arcam/JBL, Monoprice, etc. They are probably in the best position to get it done.

And yeah nobody is going to retrofit it to ancient hardware either. What I was replying to was the idea that only the PC based processors could handle ART. But no, no increase in hardware specs over current processors is required.

Monoprice HTPT-2 would be the perfect candidate for ART

 

[hmt]

If it ever arrives. And if someone is buying it. I would pass on it after the htp-1 misbehaviour.

 

[Music707]

Monoprice HTPT-2 would be the perfect candidate for ART

Only that according to Hobie Sechrest no HTP-2 is to be expected but upgrades to the HTP-1 instead.

In case you want to check for yourself:

 

[Sancus]

Only that according to Hobie Sechrest no HTP-2 is to be expected but upgrades to the HTP-1 instead.

Right. It's supposed to come back into production this year though I don't recall them mentioning any real ETA.

 

[Vacceo]

That was my point from the start. The business model of dirac seems not really to be compatible with that of the manufacturers. Dirac wants to sell licenses, the manufacturers want to sell AVR every 2 years.

I honestly think that if somehow we as consumers could push for more flexibility and the capacity to acquire software as we acquire hardware, it would be amazing.

Currently Dolby and DTS have their programs for PC. They could perfectly implement the decoding as software you have to pay for. So could Auto 3D.

Once the decoding is bought, the next step is room correction. Dirac sells you a license for a PC, so it would also be perfectly possible to get one for multichannel and pay accordingly. If Dirac can, so does Audyssey, RoomPerfect or whomever.

If all that is on the PC, the last part is the hardware. That's where hi-fi companies kick in: a "preamp" with as many DACs as channels you need, whatever phonos, RCA's, HDMI or any connection you may want (even with the possibility of designing your own with modular boxes), a USB to send and retrieve from the PC, your choice of amps and speakers... And that's it, instead of a processor, just a preamp with as many channels as you need.

I know it is a pipe dream and that would kill a lot of closed markets, so it will not happen.

There is a little last leg: Blu Rays for PC cannot reproduce UHD content in the new generations of CPU's, but that could be fixed by software as it is an element that has to do with anti-copy protections.

 

[Descartes]

So when is this going to be supported on a processor that costs less than $10,000?

2030 maybe!

 

[Descartes]

I disagree. The JBL SDP-55/58 is a very decent unit, and it includes DLBC license at no additional cost. JBL has also promised to include any future Dirac upgrades via firmware. DLBC compatible devices should support ART, so…

Have you looked at how it measures!

 

[JRiggs]

Have you looked at how it measures!

Sure have, and none of the “issues” are audible. Plus the measurements were done on an early production unit. The software and the XLR, HDMI and Dante boards have all been updated since Amir did his testing. I’d love to see a current production SDP-58 get tested to compare. But, again whatever “issues” found in testing are not audible in actual use of the processor.

 

[Vacceo]

I have just seen that McIntosh is releasing an AVR with Dirac. Seems like we have a new potencial adoptar of ARC...

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I honestly think that if somehow we as consumers could push for more flexibility and the capacity to acquire software as we acquire hardware, it would be amazing.

Currently Dolby and DTS have their programs for PC. They could perfectly implement the decoding as software you have to pay for. So could Auto 3D.

Once the decoding is bought, the next step is room correction. Dirac sells you a license for a PC, so it would also be perfectly possible to get one for multichannel and pay accordingly. If Dirac can, so does Audyssey, RoomPerfect or whomever.

If all that is on the PC, the last part is the hardware. That's where hi-fi companies kick in: a "preamp" with as many DACs as channels you need, whatever phonos, RCA's, HDMI or any connection you may want (even with the possibility of designing your own with modular boxes), a USB to send and retrieve from the PC, your choice of amps and speakers... And that's it, instead of a processor, just a preamp with as many channels as you need.

I know it is a pipe dream and that would kill a lot of closed markets, so it will not happen.

There is a little last leg: Blu Rays for PC cannot reproduce UHD content in the new generations of CPU's, but that could be fixed by software as it is an element that has to do with anti-copy protections.

Amen. This racket of creating a new DSP innovation and then having AV manufacturers require everyone buy a "whole 'nuther receiver" just to get what should be a firmware upgrade, needs to be brought to a screeching, grinding halt. That plus the crappy, noisy '70's level performing DACs and AMPs, together with the terrible reliability and the cessation of support for any unit off warranty makes breaking this monopoly by all means necessary a no-brainer.

 

[tknx]

Well, I am sure there will end up being a subscription model coming soon - because we can't own anything.

 

[dlaloum]

Actually I find it a bit concerning that no other manufacturer has eve committed to implement ART. Silence from D&M, Voxx, NAD and Arcam. The problem here wont be the exclusivity till Q4. Actuall even if the other brand would start right now they would not be able to offer it this year. Imo the exclusivity for storm is a moot point and not a factor anyway.

Voxx (Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra) - have been working on something for well over a year - during CEDIA they apparently had "the model up from the RZ70" in their auditorium, and it was "sounding good" - one would hope for at least DLBC !?! - and a commitment to an ART upgrade in Q4 would certainly strengthen their hand in launching their flagship products...

 

[dlaloum]

I honestly think that if somehow we as consumers could push for more flexibility and the capacity to acquire software as we acquire hardware, it would be amazing.

Currently Dolby and DTS have their programs for PC. They could perfectly implement the decoding as software you have to pay for. So could Auto 3D.

Once the decoding is bought, the next step is room correction. Dirac sells you a license for a PC, so it would also be perfectly possible to get one for multichannel and pay accordingly. If Dirac can, so does Audyssey, RoomPerfect or whomever.

If all that is on the PC, the last part is the hardware. That's where hi-fi companies kick in: a "preamp" with as many DACs as channels you need, whatever phonos, RCA's, HDMI or any connection you may want (even with the possibility of designing your own with modular boxes), a USB to send and retrieve from the PC, your choice of amps and speakers... And that's it, instead of a processor, just a preamp with as many channels as you need.

I know it is a pipe dream and that would kill a lot of closed markets, so it will not happen.

There is a little last leg: Blu Rays for PC cannot reproduce UHD content in the new generations of CPU's, but that could be fixed by software as it is an element that has to do with anti-copy protections.

RME has their ADI range - which includes RIAA EQ for Phono input....

But the 8 channel ADI-8 is circa US$3000 - so it is already in the higher end of AVR pricing (and if you want 16 channels you need two of them, so that is US$6000)

Then you have to add the various software licences, decoders etc.... and finally the RoomEQ software

By the time you add the various software licences (Dolby, DTS, Dirac) - you will be getting up around $5000 for just 8 channels, and around US$8000 for 16)

And you still have the time and effort required to integrate the whole thing...

Might as well buy a Storm / JBL / Trinnov !!!

I would be looking for something like an Onkyo RZ70 - at a price around US$3000

 

[Vacceo]

I guess DTS and Dolby have run their numbers. Less AVR/AVP's sold is less royalties for them, and selling software licenses may not compensate for that reduction.

Still, as consumers, I think we can all agree that more open standards benefit us.