A hopeless room & sound

[LouB]

In my quest for knowledge on buying a new system and after a few weeks here and reading a lot posts (& not understanding some of it) here's where I'm at.
Spend most of the money on speakers & get a speaker that measures well.
Make sure your room is right or use some type of DSP
Amp choice is Marantz PM8006, speakers JBL L82 classic, Marantz CD player, Yamaha WXA 10 streamer & turntable.
Now where I'm stuck is the room & DSP. The room seems hopeless as it's a family room living room open to a large kitchen. One wall is pretty much all glass from floor ceiling to 11' foot tall ceiling that slopes up to aprx 17 feet at other side of room. There is also an overhang loft on one 1 side of the room that is part of the 2nd floor. To make matters worse there are only 2 places where I can place the speakers. From what I've seen on listening rooms and speaker set ups my room looks hopeless.
My question is if I can't get "optimum" sound from a pair of 2K speakers due to room acoustics are they worth spending the money on or would a pair of 1K speakers sound just as good because of the room ? My gut tells me (I know very scientific) that the better quality speaker will sound better and be worth the money.
I'm also new to DSP, I was thinking having buy a miniDSP but confused on where or how it would work with the Marantz. If I could go pre out and than back into the amp some how with the processed signal ?
A lot of what I've seen on DSP and room treatments has been ultra high end gear and dedicated listening rooms.
Thanks in advance

 

[MarkS]

IMO, people here worry WAY too much about ideal room set-up. My set-up is very far from ideal (larger paneled glass window behind the speakers, listening position against the real wall), but it still sounds excellent to me (and I've heard a lot of systems over the years).

But room EQ for the bass range is very helpful (I'm tempted to say essential) to getting good sound.

So: if you can spare an extra $500, I would replace the Marantz and the Yamaha with the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, which comes with Lyngdorf's very easy to use Room Perfect room EQ, as well as easily customizable "voicings" to tune the system to your room/taste. It also has subwoofer integration if you want to add a sub later (this capability is missing from almost all two-channel gear).

Or go full miniDSP with Dirac.

 

[LouB]

I was thinking a miniDSP but I can't figure out how it would work with the Marantz, the amp has pre outs but no loop/main back in.
The Lyngdorf class D amp is probably a great amp but I'm not into class D amplificition for my home audio, I used class D amps for live music and there great but I just want old school power at home.

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

1) It's my understanding that choosing a speaker with narrower directivity pattern would be less influenced by the room

2) You would have to insert the DSP in between your sources and the integrated amp.. which isn't going to be terrible usability-wise, as for example, MiniDSP does have a remote control and enough I/O

3) Shoot an email with your post, plus a schematic of the listening area, to the podcast AVRant. I think you will get decent feedback with regards to a speaker layout that maximizes performance and options for room treatment

 

[JSmith]

My question is if I can't get "optimum" sound from a pair of 2K speakers due to room acoustics are they worth spending the money on or would a pair of 1K speakers sound just as good because of the room ? My gut tells me (I know very scientific) that the better quality speaker will sound better and be worth the money.

I'd suggest price is not the determining factor, however proper positive measurements, personal aesthetics and build quality are.


JSmith

 

[kongwee]

Slope ceiling is good. I assume you have a really big living room. The speaker is not really big. Get around 10ft by 10ft area for you listening area in the living room and setup a decent triangle. You can experience the potential of your setup before setting up acoustics. If you don't get the sweetspot of speaker triangle right, DSP and treatment won't help much. Big room is a plus despite glass and bare walls.

 

[Newman]

I was thinking a miniDSP but I can't figure out how it would work with the Marantz, the amp has pre outs but no loop/main back in.

Wrong.

So it’s perfect for the miniDSP.

cheers

 

[LouB]

1) It's my understanding that choosing a speaker with narrower directivity pattern would be less influenced by the room

2) You would have to insert the DSP in between your sources and the integrated amp.. which isn't going to be terrible usability-wise, as for example, MiniDSP does have a remote control and enough I/O

Slope ceiling is good. I assume you have a really big living room. The speaker is not really big. Get around 10ft by 10ft area for you listening area in the living room and setup a decent triangle. You can experience the potential of your setup before setting up acoustics. If you don't get the sweetspot of speaker triangle right, DSP and treatment won't help much. Big room is a plus despite glass and bare walls.

3) Shoot an email with your post, plus a schematic of the listening area, to the podcast AVRant. I think you will get decent feedback with regards to a speaker layout that maximizes performance and options for room treatment

Thanks I'll try out AVrant

Slope ceiling is good. I assume you have a really big living room. The speaker is not really big. Get around 10ft by 10ft area for you listening area in the living room and setup a decent triangle. You can experience the potential of your setup before setting up acoustics. If you don't get the sweetspot of speaker triangle right, DSP and treatment won't help much. Big room is a plus despite glass and bare walls.

Thats a positive on the slope, & I was thinking the L100's a better choice but there double the money.

I'd suggest price is not the determining factor, however proper positive measurements, personal aesthetics and build quality are.


JSmith

I get that, my assumption was less money less speaker performance. Question is, if room acoustics cancel out or diminish some of the freq. responses from a well measured speaker in a good room, will you still benefit from it's audible preformance in a "bad" room ? Or is a really good speaker always going to sound better than a lesser speaker regardless of the room ?

Wrong.
View attachment 248470

So it’s perfect for the miniDSP.

cheers

Nice ! I never bothered looking at the back I read a review of the amp that said there was no main in. So with that main in could I plug in all the music sources to amp, than pre out to the miniDSP & miniDSP back to main in & get the DSP EQ on all sources and amp runs normal ?
Thanks

 

[Mr. Widget]

In my quest for knowledge on buying a new system and after a few weeks here and reading a lot posts (& not understanding some of it) here's where I'm at.
Spend most of the money on speakers & get a speaker that measures well.
Make sure your room is right or use some type of DSP

Mostly yes. Make sure the room is right, or make sure that you work with the room as best you can. DSP can massage bass room modes and smooth rough frequency response, but it can not fix a fatal room or fatal room placement.

Amp choice is Marantz PM8006, speakers JBL L82 classic, Marantz CD player, Yamaha WXA 10 streamer & turntable.

This is a generally decent speaker, but you will be best served with a tightly controlled speaker. Also try to place the speakers as close to your listening position as possible and create a small listening zone for more critical listening. Due to the size and reflectivity of your room the room's RT60 will likely kill you.

Anything you can do to add diffusion and absorption to the room will help. I would spend money there before spending too much time looking for a digital fix. You don't have to buy dedicated diffusors or absorption panels, but you should study how they work and find aesthetically suitable alternatives that perform those purposes.

FWIW: In acoustically live problem rooms like you are describing, using line array type speakers will generally provide a better outcome than a more traditional speaker.

 

[kongwee]

Thats a positive on the slope, & I was thinking the L100's a better choice but there double the money.

If you have that space, it is better. More fuller range.

 

[BJL]

I have a difficult or impossible room. I implemented Dirac Live. That fixed everything important and it all sounds fine for me. Originally I used miniDSP products, then I simplified with a Pioneer AVR. Both worked for me, but I prefer the Pioneer overall.

 

[Newman]

Nice ! I never bothered looking at the back I read a review of the amp that said there was no main in. So with that main in could I plug in all the music sources to amp, than pre out to the miniDSP & miniDSP back to main in & get the DSP EQ on all sources and amp runs normal ?

Exactly

 

[restorer-john]

Wrong.
View attachment 248470

So it’s perfect for the miniDSP.

cheers

Actually you don't want to put the mini DSP on a pre/power loop as you will destroy your S/N ratio.

Depending on the relative sensitivity of the unit, the traditional and in most cases the best way, is the tape loops.

Reason? In the pre power loop, use of the volume control reduces the level going in to the A/D converters, whereas using the tape loop, the levels are fixed and the volume is controlled after the D/A conversion. Much better.

 

[Newman]

Err, NO.

 

[ZolaIII]

@LouB a picture of the space and your listening position with placements as it is now would help. Those speakers are warm, front ported and not very hard to handle regarding room to the point 1.2 KHz deep doesn't have to be addressed in most rooms. They don't need sub just a PEQ on bass (@ 110 Hz - 2.5 dB Q 2) as measured here:

JBL L82 Classic: Spinorama and Measurements

It's been a while! I've had the JBL L82 for some time now, and as far as I know, there are no published measurements for it yet. So here I am =] An incomplete post for now. Full suite of measurements and interpretations once I've published my review and formatted all the data, but in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Find a player or system level software DSP with a PEQ and try them like that.
That will give you a good understanding if and how much would a Mini DSP or such help, Dirac version is a bit pricy (for me at least).
Other than that we really need a picture to try to help you with space and positioning.
Best regards and have a nice time.

 

[Snarfie]

Before spending money on DSP want to suggest use a PC or laptop download Mathaudio Room EQ an foobar2000 for free buy a measuring Mic for less than 100,- like a usb Umik-1 mic an a new or used mic stand (quite handy)
Setup your speakers where you expect your speakers sound well.
If limiting space sit in you listening chair let somebody speak to you from the place you think the speakers sound well or has to be placed an compare several spots.

When spot found do a measurement an compare with the bypass button in Mathaudio Room EQ.
From there on decide if you buy a Minidsp. Mathaudio does not have the convenience of a minidsp. Basically other than buying a measuring Mic an stand it will cost you nothing. Mathaudio Room EQ ( = REW an APO in one solution) is let say the DSP for dummies like me with great results it is simple to use no specific knoledge is needed.

 

[restorer-john]

Err, NO.

It's OK. Some of us actually know what we are doing.

 

[Newman]

Funny and ironic, that’s neat.

 

[restorer-john]

@Newman

Some people double down when they are wrong. Others accept they really have no understanding of levels and maintaining signal to noise ratios, and admit they made a dumb mistake. A few (the clever ones), just do the Homer Simpson and hide in a hedge:

Which one are you?

The mini DSP 'typical application' is for dimwits. Nobody puts an A/D-D/A in a pre-power link unless they are stupid. As long as the Marantz has a proper tape out/tape monitor function (which it appears it likely has), that is the best way to integrate the unit.

 

[Willem]

Sadly (I also like a lot of glass and a minimalist interior) hard acoustics cannot really be equalized because the peaks at those higher frequencies are just too many and too narrow. Equalization would only work at a very narrow listening position. Dipole speakers are one option, and the only other is damping panels or some soft damping material such as curtains, carpets, bookcases etc.
Conversely, dsp room eq can be extremely successful below the transition frequency (somewhere between 100-300 Hz, depending on room size). The easiest implementation is to use multiple (at least two) subwoofers with software such as Multi Sub Optimizer and the miniDSP 2x4HD.