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Sorting through DAC reviews suitable for home theater

Bvbellomo

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Lots of wonderful reviews on this site.

I am in the market for a replacement for my Anthem D1 that just went belly up. All I really need are optical-digital in, volume control and 2 channel outputs to my Cambridge 651W.

Nearly everything blue, green or possibly even orange is a contender. Unfortunately, while I have the reviews and results, I am having trouble deciding what's appropriate for a home theater / full room setup (vs headphones for my laptop). For example, the SMSL DO100 measures really well despite it's low price point. Given its physical size and MSRP, this is not marketed at a running a large living room with high end 3-way speakers. But I am having trouble finding a technical reason not to use it. Is there a reason to avoid it for my setup? If so, is there an easy way to sort through the reviews, so I am only looking at living room appropriate DACs and not going through all the headphone and small desktop computer products?
 

Eetu

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If the device has all the features you need then don't get caught up in the price or size or 'category'.

If you are going for a HT system I would make sure you have HDMI connectivity, remote control, digital room correction, subwoofer integration and - if you have any plans to upgrade to multich in the future - a way to accomodate more than 2ch output. So if you add these all up you may notice it might make more sense to get an AVR. If you don't have the need for any of the aforementioned and want a more purist stereo-only setup, basically any DAC would do.

Personally since my use is 80% music and wanted a more compact system I went with a MiniDSP Flex instead of an AVR.
 
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Bvbellomo

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My question is more about how to read the reviews.

Something like the avM70 at $3k is tempting, as it gives me lots of channels and HDMI. Not very future proof, I'd need to go to $4k for 8k video and 120Hz 4k. My TV won't do either, but I at least browsed new TVs on Black Friday, and if I had 4k to spend before the D1 died, It would be a TV and not a preamp, so $3k for video that won't work with my next TV is unappealing.

I do really want a separate amp - I think it makes a huge difference, YMMV. If I don't want to spend $4k, that probably means routing HDMI to the TV directly, which is what I've done since HDMI came out. I've also haven't used a center in almost 10 years. So something like a Aurilec Vega around $1k or so is awfully tempting. $3k for routing that I might use in the future or is slightly more convenient is too expensive.

But if I go with a Vega $1k, am I making a mistake not going down to the SMSL DO100 and saving another $750? If not, what is the difference and how do I sort the reviews into 2 categories?
 

MaxwellsEq

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There really isn't going to be any domestic benefit for 8K. For a domestic room, you need a screen the size of a wall. I'd stick to 4K for any sensible domestic screen or projector size
 
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Bvbellomo

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For the 3rd time, my question is about how to read the reviews. Can I do an apples-to-apples comparison of a SMSL DO100 and a Aurilec Vega? Or are these completely in different classes for different purposes? And if it is the latter, how do I separate the reviews?

When 1080 came out, everyone said there really isn't going to be any domestic benefit over 720. Then when 4k came out, everyone said it was a huge improvement on 1080. I'll make up my mind on 8k once I actually see an 8k TV with good 8k footage. 120Hz 4k more relevant, and is a noticeable improvement for gaming, especially if the next generation consoles are faster. Regardless, whatever TV I have most likely will have more HDMI inputs than I have devices - and if it doesn't, then I am paying thousands of dollars to avoid switching cables.
 

Eetu

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For the 3rd time, my question is about how to read the reviews. Can I do an apples-to-apples comparison of a SMSL DO100 and a Aurilec Vega? Or are these completely in different classes for different purposes? And if it is the latter, how do I separate the reviews?
Yes they are both DACs... they both convert digital to analog. There is no reason why a 'desktop' DAC wouldn't work in a 'main' system.

I guess you seem to be confused by the huge difference in price. Well that's the world of hifi for ya. Price doesn't correlate with performance.
 

MaxwellsEq

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For the 3rd time, my question is about how to read the reviews. Can I do an apples-to-apples comparison of a SMSL DO100 and a Aurilec Vega? Or are these completely in different classes for different purposes? And if it is the latter, how do I separate the reviews?
I think the post from @Eetu was quite a good summary.
When 1080 came out, everyone said there really isn't going to be any domestic benefit over 720. Then when 4k came out, everyone said it was a huge improvement on 1080. I'll make up my mind on 8k once I actually see an 8k TV with good 8k footage. 120Hz 4k more relevant, and is a noticeable improvement for gaming, especially if the next generation consoles are faster. Regardless, whatever TV I have most likely will have more HDMI inputs than I have devices - and if it doesn't, then I am paying thousands of dollars to avoid switching cables.
It all depends on acuity, screen size and distance. For most people's TV size and sitting position, 1080 was definitely visibly better. UHD, on bigger screens, in small rooms is worth it. For 8K you probably won't be able to tell on a 100" TV in a normal room. For UHD and above, better pixels (colour, dynamic range and refresh rate) are far more important than pixel counts.
 

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Blumlein 88

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I think the post from @Eetu was quite a good summary.

It all depends on acuity, screen size and distance. For most people's TV size and sitting position, 1080 was definitely visibly better. UHD, on bigger screens, in small rooms is worth it. For 8K you probably won't be able to tell on a 100" TV in a normal room. For UHD and above, better pixels (colour, dynamic range and refresh rate) are far more important than pixel counts.
So if this works out like for audio. Even though 8k may be of no benefit, we'll one day see 56k displays. Because 56 is bigger than 8 and bigger is better. Will require a heck of a data transfer rate.
 
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Bvbellomo

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Yes they are both DACs... they both convert digital to analog. There is no reason why a 'desktop' DAC wouldn't work in a 'main' system.

I guess you seem to be confused by the huge difference in price. Well that's the world of hifi for ya. Price doesn't correlate with performance.

More confused by physical size and marketing. If I were marketing this, I'd show a room with huge 4-way speakers, amps and subwoofers all being fed by this little guy. Instead we get a picture of a smaller than full sized laptop on a desk with a single tiny speaker.

At just over $200, I pulled the trigger. This gives me options to take a long time and research and bargain hunt. If I don't keep this in my living room, I probably use it somewhere, and if nothing else, it is a huge help next time I need to troubleshoot anything wrong that might be a preamp issue. Also interesting to swap it back and forth with a high end preamp if I do go that route and try to listen to the differences.
 
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Bvbellomo

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Didn't want to get into the whole screen resolution debate - however that chart shows at 14 feet away from my current 65 inch TV, 1080 is not worth over 720. I really hope who ever wrote that chart is not allowed to drive.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Didn't want to get into the whole screen resolution debate - however that chart shows at 14 feet away from my current 65 inch TV, 1080 is not worth over 720. I really hope who ever wrote that chart is not allowed to drive.
Well, that's scientific research for you...
 

Eetu

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At just over $200, I pulled the trigger. This gives me options to take a long time and research and bargain hunt. If I don't keep this in my living room, I probably use it somewhere, and if nothing else, it is a huge help next time I need to troubleshoot anything wrong that might be a preamp issue. Also interesting to swap it back and forth with a high end preamp if I do go that route and try to listen to the differences.
Sounds like a plan.

While swapping upstream components can be really fun IME it's the speakers, subs and digital room correction where the big SQ improvements are made.

If you would still like to have the HDMI input you could either get a Bluesound Node which has eARC in or alternatively an HDMI audio extractor and output coax/optical to your DAC. But since you have remote volume control on the SMSL using optical from your TV should work nicely as well.
 

Overseas

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For the DAC you need, just decide what inputs and outputs you have to use. Then choose in your budget.
 

Tom C

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I think you made the right decision. No sense spending more than you have to.
One problem with new technologies is the availability of content in the latest format. They were still doing some new releases in dvd only up until about a year ago, and 4K has been out there for some time. There are still some titles that are DVD only. Danny Kaye is not everyone’s cup of tea, but I like his movies, and to this day not one of them is available in 1080P Blu-ray or 4K. They are DVD only, AFAIK.
 
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Bvbellomo

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I bought both 851N and DO100 and did some head to head listening. There is no way with my equipment to measure the volume is even between sources, and I don't have the best tracks to compare. I do think the 851N sounds slightly richer and more harmonious, compared with a colder, more clinical DO100 - although that could just be my imagination. There certainly isn't anything sonically making the 851N worth retailing for almost 8 times the cost. Regardless, the streaming options on the 851N are great and it looks nicer (although some might prefer the smaller DO100), but overall, I think $600 anywhere else in a system, even a very expensive system, would go farther. In my case, that would probably be more expensive capacitors in my speaker crossovers. I'd recommend either of these preamps, but the DO100 more strongly, especially if you aren't looking for streaming over wifi (the DO100 bluetooth works fine).
 

symphara

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Mr. Widget

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It all depends on acuity, screen size and distance. For most people's TV size and sitting position, 1080 was definitely visibly better. UHD, on bigger screens, in small rooms is worth it. For 8K you probably won't be able to tell on a 100" TV in a normal room. For UHD and above, better pixels (colour, dynamic range and refresh rate) are far more important than pixel counts.
I think compression and source quality are the most important. I was recently comparing 2K DCI content with 4K streaming and 4K Blu-ray. There is no comparison, 2K DCI is a far better picture quality.

The audio analogy is mp3 vs. CD. Streaming video is like SiriusXM, ripped mp3 is like DVD, Blu-ray 1080p, or Blu-ray 4K (depending on mp3 quality) and 2K DCI is like Redbook CD or hi-rez audio.

Until we can all get DCI quality in our homes, we will not be able to see what our displays are capable of.
 

DaniIsAGoddess

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For the 3rd time, my question is about how to read the reviews. Can I do an apples-to-apples comparison of a SMSL DO100 and a Aurilec Vega? Or are these completely in different classes for different purposes? And if it is the latter, how do I separate the reviews?
I believe with those 2 you can, the main reason you wouldn't be able to is features, i.e. DAC a only has USB in whilst DAC B uses Optical and Coax. As long as both dacs can be used (ie your source has outputs that the dac can use as inputs) then you can compare, there are things called DDCs which let you convert one signal type to another but that is added cost.

Something you should consider is making sure to look at both subjective and objective reviews. R2R and NOS dacs don't mwasure as well as Delta sigma dacs, but are prefered by some. Similar to how some prefer tube amps over solid state amps. Amir's SNR chart should not be treated as a ranking of the sound quality of the DAC. Amir also has a great post about to read his measurements.

As for 8K, your scepticism about "no difference" claims is warranted, https://www.techhive.com/article/578376/8k-vs-4k-tvs-most-consumers-cannot-tell-the-difference.html a double blind study shows however to most people at reasonable viewing distances there is no difference. Our eyes have a maximum amount of detail we can perceive, this is why apple brands all it's screens as retina instead of slapping 4k or 8k on it. If you want to know if 8k will make a difference go to an optometrist and get your vision tested, you can then use that information combined with seating distance and screen size to work out if you could benefit from 8k.

Going for a seperate amp is 100% the right call, if there's a new standard, or codec released you don't want to have to buy a new amp every time or if something breaks maybe it's the amp maybe its the dac, but if it's all in one box you can't just replace what broke you have to replace the who box.

I'd recommend getting the miniDSP OpenDRC-DI it's $325 for 2 channels of room correction, it has optical/coax in and out. You will need to get a measurement mic (You can hire expensive ones or you can buy calibrated ones on amazon for pretty cheap too) and to take some time taking measurements and there's bith free and oayed software that'll generate filters for you to put into your OpenDRC. This is more work than Dirac Live but the advantage is like with seperate amp you don't have to buy it over and over again (you will need to remeasure if you change anything in your setup, especially speaker placement) but it will blow you away how much better it sounds. Room corrected/calibrated cheap speakers can sound better than high end uncorrected speakers. Even with room treatment, being able to perfectly time align speakers will really improve imaging

On your budget I'd recommend looking at the holo spring 3, the preamp module is amazing and very similar to the serene for only an extra $500 you won't find a better preamp at anywhere close to that price point


PS one last thing about resolution. There are many things that affect video quality, mainly bitrate. As someone mentioned there 1080p tv being an improvement over 720p even though that chart suggests it shouldn't. Streamed video be it from netflix youtube or a live tv broadcast is always compressed. Hugher resolutions have hugher bitrates (ie less losses due to compression) this is why watching 4k youtube even if your screen isn't 4k looks better. You should also consider that a more expensive 4k tv will look better than a cheap one bc of things like dynamic range contrast. That chart is only about what is a perceivable resolution at a guven distance for someone with 20/20 vision. Not if content at those resolutions are discernable
 
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