Carpeted Flooring : Good or Bad?

[dped90]

While I have no experience with DIRAC, convolvers, DSP driven subwoofer alignment or acoustical solutions for taming room modes, I am slowly on my way getting there. And it's also nice to know that having two pairs of subs rather than one will further correct the room's sound. However, can someone please illustrate if or how might wall to wall carpeting negatively impact acoustics for music listening versus a bare or mostly bare floor? My room is ~ 20 feet x 15
with a triangular ceiling that peaks at 11 feet and declines to 8 ft.

 

[NTK]

Excerpt from: http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/UnderstandingRoomAcousticsAndSpeakerPlacement.pdf

 

[kemmler3D]

how might wall to wall carpeting negatively impact acoustics for music listening versus a bare or mostly bare floor?

Full carpeting will tend to reduce high frequencies and leave low frequencies alone. Overall it will shift the frequency balance of reflected/reverberant sound lower. So, if your room is currently too bright, carpet may be great. If it's currently perfect to your ears, then don't mess with success. If you aren't sure, take some measurements and post them here for commentary.

 

[dped90]

Full carpeting will tend to reduce high frequencies and leave low frequencies alone. Overall it will shift the frequency balance of reflected/reverberant sound lower. So, if your room is currently too bright, carpet may be great. If it's currently perfect to your ears, then don't mess with success. If you aren't sure, take some measurements and post them here for commentary.

Thanks for this great feedback!

The wall to wall carpeting is very thin 20-year-old stuff about 40% of which I've covered with new Karastan remnants about twice as thick-mostly because fibers from the old stuff kept flaking off and stabbing my toes. Thus, once I excise the room of a bunch of clutter and decide on and install speakers for a 5.1 system, I may have to lay down more remnants. But all along I’ve deliberately minimized all other sound absorbing items. There’s only three small upholstered chairs and no sofa. Instead of curtains to block excessive light through the blinds on the three bay windows on the north wall, I overlapped and stapled together 55-gal black trash bags and used spring loaded paper clips to attach them to the edges of the hard plastic cover over the blinds track. They can be dropped to UV ray blast and aerate the room all day long once weekly and then easily reattached.

So while it's likely a good 10 ft shorter than it ought to be for clean, realistic bass extension to ~ 30Hz, is the room's acoustical environment pretty well balanced between bright and dead?

However, as the opposite side of the solid long wall is open to a 3 ft w x ~ 12 ft hallway, a 10 ft x 8 ft kitchen and a 4 ft wide downstairs what problems would this present even for a well designed two channel and/or 5.1 system, both of which using two pairs of subs like these https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/debra/

https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/ak-tall-subs/

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

Once the system is installed (several months from now) I will certainly want to utilize the recommended mic and software to run the room measurements. Speaking of such measuring devices, a friend gifted me this sound level meter. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/778244O/sound-detector-sd-200-user-manual-emea.pdf\ Trouble is
3M said the calibration fee is ~ $400. Would it have much value for making these or other useful measurements, as is, or even it was calibrated?

 

[DVDdoug]

Trouble is 3M said the calibration fee is ~ $400.

It doesn't have to be perfectly accurate but "calibration" is most-likely only SPL calculation and frequency calibration is more important.

You can get a calibrated measurement mic for around $100 USD. USB measurement mics are calibrated for SPL and frequency. (Analog measurement mics aren't SPL calibrated because the "final" digital levels depend on preamp gain and ADC sensitivity.)

SPL calibration is more for legal or regulatory purposes. An uncalibrated SPL meter is good enough for casual measurements.

...I have an old analog Radio Shack SPL meter and recently I was doing some "experiments". I've read that electret mics loose sensitivity over time and this thing is 30 or 40 years old so I bought a calibrator something like this. I could have bought a new SPL meter for about the same price, but I thought this would be more fun. The meter reads "perfect" (as close as I can read the analog meter) so it didn't deteriorate and doesn't need calibration! (I'm pretty-sure the calibrator itself isn't calibrated to an NIST-traceable standard so my "calibrated" meter still wouldn't be acceptable for legal or regulatory purposes.)

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks for this great feedback!

The wall to wall carpeting is very thin 20-year-old stuff about 40% of which I've covered with new Karastan remnants about twice as thick-mostly because fibers from the old stuff kept flaking off and stabbing my toes. Thus, once I excise the room of a bunch of clutter and decide on and install speakers for a 5.1 system, I may have to lay down more remnants. But all along I’ve deliberately minimized all other sound absorbing items. There’s only three small upholstered chairs and no sofa. Instead of curtains to block excessive light through the blinds on the three bay windows on the north wall, I overlapped and stapled together 55-gal black trash bags and used spring loaded paper clips to attach them to the edges of the hard plastic cover over the blinds track. They can be dropped to UV ray blast and aerate the room all day long once weekly and then easily reattached.

So while it's likely a good 10 ft shorter than it ought to be for clean, realistic bass extension to ~ 30Hz, is the room's acoustical environment pretty well balanced between bright and dead?

However, as the opposite side of the solid long wall is open to a 3 ft w x ~ 12 ft hallway, a 10 ft x 8 ft kitchen and a 4 ft wide downstairs what problems would this present even for a well designed two channel and/or 5.1 system, both of which using two pairs of subs like these https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/debra/

https://jamesromeyn.com/speakers/subwoofers/ak-tall-subs/

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

https://gr-research.com/product/sub-series-double-trouble-with-flatpacks-copy/

Once the system is installed (several months from now) I will certainly want to utilize the recommended mic and software to run the room measurements. Speaking of such measuring devices, a friend gifted me this sound level meter. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/778244O/sound-detector-sd-200-user-manual-emea.pdf\ Trouble is
3M said the calibration fee is ~ $400. Would it have much value for making these or other useful measurements, as is, or even it was calibrated?

That device will be useless for room measurements, calibrated or otherwise.

You need a calibrated measuremement mic - eg the Umik1 from Minidsp, which can be had for about 1/4 of the calibration cost of your SPL meter.

 

[Owl]

My room is approximately 14X16 feet with an 8 foot ceiling and wall to wall short carpeting. I some acoustic treatment behind the listening chair and corner bass traps. I would definitely characterize the room as more deadened than bright. If it wasn't such a big job, I would rip it up and install wood planks or sections. Like others have said, it depends on your preferance and your speakers.

 

[Axo1989]

Excerpt from: http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/UnderstandingRoomAcousticsAndSpeakerPlacement.pdf

View attachment 248067

I expect that some of the aesthetic and/or emotional responses people have to architecture and furnishing is related to the acoustics that result.

The quoted text compares Scandinavian modern to old-school cozy. I think traditional Japanese architecture is acoustically interesting. It may be sparsely furnished and aesthetically clean, but construction and finishing provide quite different acoustics. Tatami over timber slats, room ratios including ceiling heights that correspond to room size, shoji paper screen walls, layers of exposed timber framing, and so on all reduce reflections and add diffusion. Traditional tatami floor is superior to carpet as this construction will absorb higher frequencies while allowing bass to pass through for wide-spectrum treatment, but can't be simply retrofitted (tatami over a continuous/solid floor will perform more conventionally and reflect bass).

For example, my ~ 5 x 7 metre listening room uses this construction—but no additional acoustic treatment—and behaves like a treated room with smooth RT around 200 ms above 63 Hz (as well as can be estimated in a small room).

 

[amirm]

As a general advice, floor carpeting is a good idea but should be as thick as possible. If what you have is thin, it won't filter out the 500 Hz region where the coloration is said to come from. Still, if the room is empty otherwise, carpet on the floor is definitely necessary.

 

[oivavoi]

My subjective experience is a strong 'yes' to carpeting. Overly bright rooms are very annoying rooms to listen in IME. Too dead rooms can be boring, but the only way to make ordinary living rooms that dead is basically to use too much acoustic absoption panels. Carpeting along with nice furniture and book cases etc is a nice compromise somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure it matters that much that carpets don't absorb all frequencies equally. Our ears are not measurement microphones, and there is research that suggests our brains are good at filtering out room-based coloration.

What remains very annoying and detrimental to good sound is high-frequency echo. Carpeting is good at removing that.

 

[dped90]

Another reason for questions about carpeted flooring is how much it might impact basic speaker form factor choices. I’ve only had one pair of speakers, which are fairly large floor standing types; a future two channel high res system may have even larger ones. But for next year’s 5.1 system build (plus two pairs of one of the above subwoofer models)-mostly for playing the DTS-MA track from BD movies**-would tower or stand mount main speakers be the better and “safer” choice with carpeted flooring?

The number and/or type of speaker drivers may also be an important factor. Probably the major reason for deciding against woofers in the five mains speakers would be added cost, as each speaker might be ~ $2K. But if I found prebuilt or had custom built (e.g. Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics) five mains speakers-and assuming none of the above subs would have trouble crossing as high as 70Hz-how likely would I be compromising soundstage size and dimensionality and/or imaging if these five speakers had a midwoofer but no woofer?

If there would be no performance losses with crossing directly from midwoofers to subs, how then to also resolve practical placement and safety issues if system costs might compel me to opt for stand mount over tower speaker form factors? Though I live alone I’ve always dreaded the thought of knocking over an expensive stand mount speaker. I know that this risk is typically averted as most stands have strong and sharp spikes to pass carpeting and into the wood flooring. But I don’t see how stand mounted speakers could be as safe from being knocked over compared to the same tweeter, midrange and midwoofer drivers in a tower box-and with the lower portion largely filled with sand or other heavy matter?

Beyond this safety issue, while I enjoy several sonic aspects of my old floor standers its off-axis response is quite poor. I do NOT want that with this 5.1 system. Can someone strongly recommend one or more prebuilt and/or kit tower (preferably with midwoofer only) or stand mount speaker models https://www.stereophile.com/content/make-it-yourself-madisound-and-meniscus which might at least approach the apparently superb off axis response of these?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker-measurements

Or at least match the off-axis response of these?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-p3esr-loudspeaker-measurements

However, assuming that I won’t find the right tower speaker, the other problem with stand mount speakers is that prices of many speaker models can get crazy high, regardless of well they may be designed. And while some stands also accept insertion of steel shot and other weighting to help damp out resonance, how many stands offer little if any easily adjustable height?

Indeed, since I have wall to wall carpeting, would it be better to simply instead place each stand mount speaker on top of something like two interlocking hard plastic “milk” boxes? That way if the speakers don’t have the off-axis performance of those Joseph Pulsars it might be fairly easy and safe to adjust their height a lot closer to ear level, even for when my girl and I are up and dancing.

** HTPC playing BD movies via JRiver Media Center and feeding decoded DTS-MA track via USB to a DAC like this exaSound Audio Design > Products > e68 8-channel DAC -

 

[Keith_W]

You could try mounting your speakers to your stands with some double sided tape or Blu-Tak.

 

[antcollinet]

Another reason for questions about carpeted flooring is how much it might impact basic speaker form factor choices. I’ve only had one pair of speakers, which are fairly large floor standing types; a future two channel high res system may have even larger ones. But for next year’s 5.1 system build (plus two pairs of one of the above subwoofer models)-mostly for playing the DTS-MA track from BD movies**-would tower or stand mount main speakers be the better and “safer” choice with carpeted flooring?

The number and/or type of speaker drivers may also be an important factor. Probably the major reason for deciding against woofers in the five mains speakers would be added cost, as each speaker might be ~ $2K. But if I found prebuilt or had custom built (e.g. Salk Sound, Tyler Acoustics) five mains speakers-and assuming none of the above subs would have trouble crossing as high as 70Hz-how likely would I be compromising soundstage size and dimensionality and/or imaging if these five speakers had a midwoofer but no woofer?

If there would be no performance losses with crossing directly from midwoofers to subs, how then to also resolve practical placement and safety issues if system costs might compel me to opt for stand mount over tower speaker form factors? Though I live alone I’ve always dreaded the thought of knocking over an expensive stand mount speaker. I know that this risk is typically averted as most stands have strong and sharp spikes to pass carpeting and into the wood flooring. But I don’t see how stand mounted speakers could be as safe from being knocked over compared to the same tweeter, midrange and midwoofer drivers in a tower box-and with the lower portion largely filled with sand or other heavy matter?

Beyond this safety issue, while I enjoy several sonic aspects of my old floor standers its off-axis response is quite poor. I do NOT want that with this 5.1 system. Can someone strongly recommend one or more prebuilt and/or kit tower (preferably with midwoofer only) or stand mount speaker models https://www.stereophile.com/content/make-it-yourself-madisound-and-meniscus which might at least approach the apparently superb off axis response of these?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker-measurements

Or at least match the off-axis response of these?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-p3esr-loudspeaker-measurements

However, assuming that I won’t find the right tower speaker, the other problem with stand mount speakers is that prices of many speaker models can get crazy high, regardless of well they may be designed. And while some stands also accept insertion of steel shot and other weighting to help damp out resonance, how many stands offer little if any easily adjustable height?

Indeed, since I have wall to wall carpeting, would it be better to simply instead place each stand mount speaker on top of something like two interlocking hard plastic “milk” boxes? That way if the speakers don’t have the off-axis performance of those Joseph Pulsars it might be fairly easy and safe to adjust their height a lot closer to ear level, even for when my girl and I are up and dancing.

** HTPC playing BD movies via JRiver Media Center and feeding decoded DTS-MA track via USB to a DAC like this exaSound Audio Design > Products > e68 8-channel DAC -

Just get speaker stands with wide bases/feet. No reason speaker stands if properly designed can't be as stable - or more so - than tower speakers.

 

[dped90]

You could try mounting your speakers to your stands with some double sided tape or Blu-Tak.

Yes, Blu-Tak between the stand and speaker plus maybe 2" wide gaffers tape affixed between the stand and along the bottom of the speaker on three sides.

Just get speaker stands with wide bases/feet. No reason speaker stands if properly designed can't be as stable - or more so - than tower speakers.

Most of the stands I've seen, except perhaps for the super $$$ ones, have bases too narrow to avoid being top heavy, at least with a sizable speaker mounted to it. Perhaps some of these may not be too risky. https://nordarchitecture.com/diy/excellent-diy-speaker-stands/ https://bestspeakerstand.com/speaker-stands-guide/

This one has adjustable height and tilt. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Clutch-C...-Studio-Monitor-Speaker-Stands-pair/328491448

Tilting speakers on stands would be risky though again using 2" gaffers tape might well compensate.

https://www.grainger.com/product/22VC30?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkMGcBhCSARIsAIW6d0AoOJiZzUYfnECDvmmgKuKRNXMGSpzVsIUwFmnLdKBHaPdJMLRgxE0aAnS_EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[antcollinet]

Cut a suitably sized/shaped piece of ply or board as a platform to fit the speaker on.

Get three of these legs from Ikea
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/hilver-leg-cone-shaped-bamboo-80278273/ (Or similar - there are cheaper less attractive ones, and adjustable height ones)

Cut out 3 off 10cm circles from 12 or 18mm plywood. Sand each at an angle (full thickness on one side tapering to narrower on the other - depending on what angle you want the legs at. Paint platform and discs whatever colour you want.

Fit the legs to the platform using the angled discs to create a tripod effect. You'll need to use screws long enough to go through the disk into the platofrm at the thick end of the disk - but not so long they go straight through the platform at the thin end. Different length screws may be needed for a larger angle of the legs. Tripod can be as wide as you like at the base of the feet.

 

[dped90]

Cut a suitably sized/shaped piece of ply or board as a platform to fit the speaker on.

Get three of these legs from Ikea
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/hilver-leg-cone-shaped-bamboo-80278273/ (Or similar - there are cheaper less attractive ones, and adjustable height ones).......... Tripod can be as wide as you like at the base of the feet.

Sadly, I have zero woodworking skills and tools, save for a screwdriver, Channel Locks and the like. That said, it's very
likely that while the powered subs will be pre-built, the rest of the 5.1 speakers will be kit speakers. However, this can
only happen if the cabinet plans for the chosen kits are available as CNC files so that a hired builder can load the file
into his CNC machine. If yes, and assuming the flat paks have pre-drilled countersunk holes, I can then simply glue, screw
and clamp. Will call Madisound and Meniscus tomorrow about this. However, with skyrocketing plywood prices, labor
rates and/or shipping costs, it remains to be seen how economical higher end kit speakers will be versus pre-built
speakers.

Anyone here ever build any Madisound or Meniscus kits?

 

[antcollinet]

Sadly, I have zero woodworking skills and tools, save for a screwdriver, Channel Locks and the like. That said, it's very
likely that while the powered subs will be pre-built, the rest of the 5.1 speakers will be kit speakers. However, this can
only happen if the cabinet plans for the chosen kits are available as CNC files so that a hired builder can load the file
into his CNC machine. If yes, and assuming the flat paks have pre-drilled countersunk holes, I can then simply glue, screw
and clamp. Will call Madisound and Meniscus tomorrow about this. However, with skyrocketing plywood prices, labor
rates and/or shipping costs, it remains to be seen how economical higher end kit speakers will be versus pre-built
speakers.

Anyone here ever build any Madisound or Meniscus kits?

See first page or so here:

tl;dr - DIY unlikely to be less expensive than finished speakers

DIY audio, where to get started?

Hi, To start with I'm in the UK so would prefer any places to buy from being local, what u really want to know would be the best place to start? Is there kits available that can be put together for instance? My woodworking skills are non existent and I don't have a workspace for anything...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[dped90]

See first page or so here:

tl;dr - DIY unlikely to be less expensive than finished speakers

DIY audio, where to get started?

Hi, To start with I'm in the UK so would prefer any places to buy from being local, what u really want to know would be the best place to start? Is there kits available that can be put together for instance? My woodworking skills are non existent and I don't have a workspace for anything...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Then what are the primary advantages of DIY speakers? I know that many in the DIY community take a dim view of "professional reviewers" of higher end audio hardware. But there are lots of speakers which really get seriously positive raves when used with other high end gear-which are also "evaluated" by paid people. One such speaker are the Joseph Audio Pulsars. https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker-measurements They obviously have superb off-axis response plus several other high performance features. They are ~ $7K/pair and I would need either two pairs for my 5.1 system, or those plus a floor standing version and a similar sounding CC speaker.

Of course, the drivers in these Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers were custom made by SEAS. https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker But while they may not be part of any ongoing SEAS product line I am checking with SEAS about any particular tweeter and woofer available which measure and sound nearly the same.

If so, then regarding your assertion that DIY is unlikely to be less expensive than finished speakers, how can this be since the brand (and any reseller) have to make a profit above their production and distribution costs, regardless of any discounting (however much that happens with Joseph, KEF, Wilson, et al). https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-do-hifi-dealers-add-on-top-on-average.25524/ ?

So at minimum the total producer + seller mark up price would likely have to be somewhere between 50 and 70% above actual production costs. If the numbers are wrong please explain by how much.

 

[antcollinet]

It is not my assertion - I have no personal experience. I just pointed you towards people who do. But as pointed out in that thread, mass production has the capability to dramatically reduce costs per unit compared with niche bespoke kits. Oh, and the kit supply chain also needs to make money.

The benefits of DIY are also articulated in that thread. Primarily a learning experience.

 

[Mr. Widget]

See first page or so here:

tl;dr - DIY unlikely to be less expensive than finished speakers

+1

Of course, the drivers in these Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers were custom made by SEAS. https://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeaker But while they may not be part of any ongoing SEAS product line I am checking with SEAS about any particular tweeter and woofer available which measure and sound nearly the same.

Virtually all production speakers using drivers made by major driver manufacturers from Wilson or down, will have "custom" speakers inside. These custom speaker drivers may have unique voicoils, stiffer or softer spiders, or whatever... that doesn't mean they are inherently superior, they are just better integrated in that particular design. That is assuming the designers know what they are doing.

If you are trying to get the most bang for the buck, find a mass produced speaker you like and buy second hand. Audiophile churn through gear. There are lots of stellar deals out there. The critical thing is to find a speaker you like. DIY designs are great if you want to tinker and learn, but if that isn't you I suggest you avoid them.