An audio engineer explains why Dolby Atmos Music is “definitely going to supersede stereo”

[theREALdotnet]

In both cases the only real difference I could here was a reduction in volume in the lower mids and bass.

After seeing the Audacity screenshots I wondered about this, because I didn’t notice any reduction in volume when going back and forth between Atmos and lossless. The answer is that I have Sound Check (i.e. volume levelling) turned on by default in the Music app.

 

[Tim Link]

So I'm listening to this Dolby Atmos mix that seems to be mono at least for the first songs. Only the center speaker is doing anything. Atmos can be mono!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Dolby Atmos music has a -18 or -20 LUFS limit built into the enocder. Modern music is typically mixed at -8 LUFS.

This alone probably makes even stereo derived from Atmos worth doing via Apple Music.

 

[Trell]

hmm ..nope , nope; I have tried surround processing formats for my stereo music for years, yes all those dolby surrounds, multichannel and pro logic stuff, it was Ok, gimmicky, But i was always going back to old good stereo, but ATMOS music when mastered well is quite different thing my friend, right now, streaming ATMOS is same price as streaming stereo so.....

I feel the same for music as I only listen to multi-channel using multi-channel sources like my SACDs.

 

[Trell]

It stopped being gimmicky with 5.1 discrete. That was over 20 years ago. How many here bothered setting up 5.1 systems for music? Who thinks adding height channels to audio is going to improve adoption?

Or is this all just preparation for when AI starts churning out all our media necessitating object-oriented composing?

I've a 5.2 setup for both music and home theatre in my living room. I've about 140+ SACD with almost all of them multi-channel.

Edit: Here is link to my living room setup with pictures. As you can see a full Atmos setup is not in the cards for that small room, and I don't think even two height speakers will ever be installed.

Are GIK Acoustic's Sound Blocks really a revolutionary concept?

I haven't said anything about diffusion in the lows. That's not needed. You have misunderstood abdo123. How low are we talking?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Tim Link]

I feel the same for music as I only listen to multi-channel using multi-channel sources like my SACDs.

hmm ..nope , nope; I have tried surround processing formats for my stereo music for years, yes all those dolby surrounds, multichannel and pro logic stuff, it was Ok, gimmicky, But i was always going back to old good stereo, but ATMOS music when mastered well is quite different thing my friend, right now, streaming ATMOS is same price as streaming stereo so.....

I used to feel the same way.

 

[Trell]

I used to feel the same way.

Sure, this is a preference and nothing more. It also depends on your actual setup and source material how good the up mixing will be.

 

[Tim Link]

Sure, this is a preference and nothing more. It also depends on your actual setup and source material how good the up mixing will be.

I'm really surprised that old fashioned pro-logic II is actually pleasing me now. I'm sure it's partly to do with my current setup and perhaps changes to my sound perception as I age.

 

[AdamG]

I'm really surprised that old fashioned pro-logic II is actually pleasing me now. I'm sure it's partly to do with my current setup and perhaps changes to my sound perception as I age.

Sometimes just something different is pleasant. I do mostly default to 2 channel stereo maybe 70% of the time. Sometimes multichannel seems to distract me and make me disengage from the music. While other times it pulls me in and makes me focus more on the music. So many variables involved in this stuff.

After seeing the Audacity screenshots I wondered about this, because I didn’t notice any reduction in volume when going back and forth between Atmos and lossless. The answer is that I have Sound Check (i.e. volume levelling) turned on by default in the Music app.

Thanks for posting this. I too have the same setting. Must be on by default? Pretty new to Apple Music so still learning the app options and settings.

 

[IPunchCholla]

I'll admit to being less than clear on what exactly the effect of going from Apple Lossless to Dolby Atmos is supposed to be. From reading up on it, Dolby Atmos is mixed to -18 LUFS while Apple Music Lossless (with sound check on?) will automatically reduce mixes mixed above -16 LUFS to -16 LUFS via overall gain. Is this correct?

What I seem to be hearing (and when I have more time to play I will record these changes in Logic Pro) is:

Apple Music sound check on: Lossless-> Dolby Atmos: very little change in overall volume, but a noticeable, if slight, reduction in bass and maybe lower mids.
Apple Music sound check off: Lossless->Dolby Atmos: noticeable change in overall volume evenly distributed across all frequencies. Increasing gain to get back to where the perceived volume was (roughly) makes it sound really good again, maybe better than the lossless, but I'm pretty sure that is because I am making it louder.

 

[Spkrdctr]

... They initially said this in the video, but then Gene clarified that it was the 4 height channels that made the difference for Atmos objects, and that 5.1 bed layer would be fine.

Yes it is fine. You can get very, very good sound from a 5.1 with ATMOS height speakers added. So it would be 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 Many (most?) rooms can handle a 5.1.4 a lot easier than a 7 or 9 speaker set up. The people who can really get into it are the ones with a dedicated theater room that was built for 9.2.4, regular folks, not so much.

 

[Sal1950]

Yep, got it

Good list, Yello - Point is truly demo quality for 3D music
Here's a few more "not to miss" releases
There's so much more on Apple now
The Futures So Bright, I Gotta Where Shades

Atmos,
Booka Shade - Dear Future Self & Galvany Street
Steven Wilson - The Future Bites
Tears For Fears - Tipping Point
The Pineapple Thief - Give It Back
King Crimson - In The Court _______________

AURO 3D
Big Phat Band - The Gordian Knot
Mando Diao - Aelita
The BBB featuring Bernie Dresel

 

[Sal1950]

So 5.1.4 is the minimum for a good Atmos effect.
Obviously 7.1.4 is preferred and this is probably the default for mixing.

Agreed. You can't really generate things like a overhead front to rear pan with only 2 overheads.
I just don't have the room to add the rear surrounds but IMO a good 5.x.4 system will generate 90% of what is possible from a 7 or 9 channel base. Their importance becomes increasing more valuable as room size grows.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I'll admit to being less than clear on what exactly the effect of going from Apple Lossless to Dolby Atmos is supposed to be. From reading up on it, Dolby Atmos is mixed to -18 LUFS while Apple Music Lossless (with sound check on?) will automatically reduce mixes mixed above -16 LUFS to -16 LUFS via overall gain. Is this correct?

What I seem to be hearing (and when I have more time to play I will record these changes in Logic Pro) is:

Apple Music sound check on: Lossless-> Dolby Atmos: very little change in overall volume, but a noticeable, if slight, reduction in bass and maybe lower mids.
Apple Music sound check off: Lossless->Dolby Atmos: noticeable change in overall volume evenly distributed across all frequencies. Increasing gain to get back to where the perceived volume was (roughly) makes it sound really good again, maybe better than the lossless, but I'm pretty sure that is because I am making it louder.

I found that any improvement (or lack of it) varies a lot with different albums. I got the most impressive gains (much better soundstage, chiseled voices, etc.) with pop/alternative. Many of the classical albums seem to benefit only a little, although there are exceptions.

This seems to suggest that much of the “magic” lies in the quality gap between the mixes (lossless vs Atmos), rather than some intrinsic technological feature of Atmos. But whatever it may be, I’ll take it, especially for free.

 

[napfkuchen]

Good list, Yello - Point is truly demo quality for 3D music
Here's a few more "not to miss" releases
There's so much more on Apple now
The Futures So Bright, I Gotta Where Shades

Atmos,
Booka Shade - Dear Future Self & Galvany Street
Steven Wilson - The Future Bites
Tears For Fears - Tipping Point
The Pineapple Thief - Give It Back
King Crimson - In The Court _______________

AURO 3D
Big Phat Band - The Gordian Knot
Mando Diao - Aelita
The BBB featuring Bernie Dresel

Thanks for the recommendations ... Unfortunately I don't like any of the music you posted except for Tears For Fears. But the bluray is only available used for 50 Euro upwards - no thanks. Most of the music / movie blurays I got for 3-10 Euro in mint condition with the exception of Yello. But this one really was a must have as their stereo music is a strong favorite (electronic music + stellar production). So yes, Apple Music seems to be the way to go!

 

[Tim Link]

After doing a lot of listening over the last few days I've found some Atmos mixes that I definitely don't like as much as the originals, whether mixed down to 2 channel or in 5.2. Some sound better to me in discrete 5.2, some sound better in stereo up-mixed with Dolby Pro Logic II. This gives people options to find a sound that they might like better. I was listening to new Atmos mixes of Fleetwood Mac and my roommate walking by said "I remember them sounding better than that." So I went back to the older 2 channel mixes, which are also available on Apple Music, and sure enough I agreed with him that the older mixes sounded better overall. But not in every way, so it's fun to have choices, or frustrating depending on how you look at it.

 

[Newman]

Sounds like your roommate planted a suggestion that you then created perceptually. At least, potentially.

 

[Tim Link]

Sounds like your roommate planted a suggestion that you then created perceptually. At least, potentially.

I can't prove otherwise. I'll have to listen again and see if the impression sticks. I did some fast switching between Atmos multi-channel and Atmos stereo with Pro Logic Up-mixing by changing the sound mode output on my Mac from 2 channel to multi channel with Atmos set to "always on" in Apple Music. The difference is consistent on most recordings because the center vocalists play through the center speaker with Pro Logic, and they typically don't with the discreet mixes. The phantom center image has a very distinct character to it, as does the direct sound from the center speaker. I can see why people might be bothered by the center speaker. It's very direct and seems more forceful, brighter. I like it, but can see why some don't. I've then compared both to a crosstalk reduction array I've been experimenting with using 5 speakers for a standard 2 channel signal. In my opinion it wins over all the multi channel formats hands-down. But, you have to sit in the middle, so it's mostly a solo arrangement. What's cool though is I can turn that matrix off and move the speakers back out apart from each other and play Pro Logic or multi-channel mixes from movies or Apple Music when others are watching.

 

[Sal1950]

"So yes, Apple Music seems to be the way to go! "

Sure, that's what I've always used streaming for, to preview music I'm interested in before buying.

 

[Newman]

Sure, that's what I've always used streaming for, to preview music I'm interested in before buying.

Hi Sal, I'm getting the impression that streaming has moved on, even with many audiophiles, from that function. It has its own legitimacy as a 'final product', at last.