What to do about the ABX test?

[Killingbeans]

I,the "smart" with my new found light in here can easily steer him with knowledge,can't I?

In an ideal world, yes. In reality no amount of facts, evidence or reasoning will move a person even the tiniest bit away from his/her convictions if they are already set.

I bet that's also what you were hinting at.

When I do my broken record routine, I definitely don't expect the person with the unfounded claim to "see the light" and abandon their convictions.

My biggest hope is that when some curious mind, who hasn't formed their convictions yet, finds the thread via a Google search or the likes and sees the claim, he/she doesn't just go "Hmmm... I've seen many people claim this. There must be something to it." but also reads my counter argument and go "Ahhh... That actually makes more sense. Bullet dodged".

The nonsense we face in the hobby today is unfortunately more or less set in concrete. The real fight worth fighting is the one that gives newcomers the knowledge and information needed to avoid keeping the myths and pseudoscience alive. Assuming they actually appreciate those things and don't go straight for the romance of ignorance.

Why do I have to resort in cheap humor or humiliate him?That will not determine him but me.

I definitely agree that cheap shots and retorts don't do much good.

There's never a need to be a d##k, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Some people simply have an almost debilitatingly low tolerance for insults, and trying to handle them with kid gloves will require a nearly inhuman amount of patience. It's not always worth the effort, IMO.

 

[Sokel]

But not so open your brains fall out.

Is it an expression?You're the second to reply it and it's funny.
(I'm honestly asking,my bad English don't help and I'm of the ones who visualize expressions)

 

[Blumlein 88]

Is it an expression?You're the second to reply it and it's funny.
(I'm honestly asking,my bad English don't help and I'm of the ones who visualize expressions)

Yes it is a common saying.

 

[DonR]

Is it an expression?You're the second to reply it and it's funny.
(I'm honestly asking,my bad English don't help and I'm of the ones who visualize expressions)

yes, here is its history https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/13/open-mind/

 

[Sokel]

In an ideal world, yes. In reality no amount of facts, evidence or reasoning will move a person even the tiniest bit away from his/her convictions if they are already set.

I bet that's also what you were hinting at.

Mostly yes.
But I can easily identify such people in here who changed their mind and accepted the evidence (the ones people who really know stuff present and sadly they write less and less,too much static you see).
Doesn't have to convince them all,you tell your truth and you let it fly.
No need for wordy sheets or flames.
Truth don't need defenders,it's self sufficient.

 

[voodooless]

As a person's quality.The ones confident with themselves will never become lesser by using bad,cheap humor nor they will find resort humiliating others.

That is wishful thinking at best. We’re all still human after all.

As for the people sending stuff:
You don't need me to mark the expressions used,usually by members that found the light and as new fanatics want to establish their place amongst the ones who really know stuff and usually are much more kind and immune to rudeness.

Only as an example read one of the Chord reviews.Even if they measured straight the price was enough to trigger the low instincts of people.

Okay, so that’s what you mean. Sure that happens. If that’s unwanted, it could be policed more. But yes, people that have one of those high priced products show up and declare it the best things since sliced bread, usually with a certain tone of posting, because in the 6 or so pages before, the product was mocked on occasion. Carnage ensues…

It will be a while to see pricey items,I'm sure.

There are many reasons why we see so few of the higher prices items: it’s not the usual crowd, shipping and insurance cost is high, and yes, the chance that the product will perform badly is high, and chances are people will have some nasty comments about it. I don’t see how that can be changed other than that products actually deliver a decent product without pseudoscience nonsense.

because "people" is the only thing that actually matters !?!

Sure, people matter. That is exactly why walking on eggshells all the time is a bad idea. It’s not the solution to all problems.

And you might easily lose another x generations by doing "the other". "That" and "the other" are not exactly mutually exclusive.
(philosophically, one may argue that true black&white and mutually exclusive things only exist in the math book)

You have to know when to use what. There is a time and place for both.

But in the end, I think we all agree there should be a beter way to communicate.

Is it an expression?You're the second to reply it and it's funny.

Earlier it was humiliating, so which one is it? This comes up about at least once a week, and it’s a total nonsense argument, as the response demonstrates. And usually is also total projection.

Doesn't have to convince them all,you tell your truth and you let it fly.

What’s the point of that?

Truth don't need defenders,it's self sufficient.

No, it’s not. Again: what is the point? You tell somebody the truth, it’s not accepted, and then you go away. That accomplished nothing. The truth is still the truth, and the person still doesn’t believe it.

 

[Sokel]

Earlier it was humiliating, so which one is it? This comes up about at least once a week, and it’s a total nonsense argument, as the response demonstrates. And usually is also total projection.

What’s the point of that?

No, it’s not. Again: what is the point? You tell somebody the truth, it’s not accepted, and then you go away. That accomplished nothing. The truth is still the truth, and the person still doesn’t believe it.

When did I say that this expression is humiliating?It's funny,I still laugh!
As for the truth,what do you suggest doing if someone does not accept truth?Nail it to his head?Tar and feathers?
(it's been a very dark time in our European history where people was tortured and killed if they didn't accept the established truth,I hope we moved past that).

 

[MattHooper]

That's not what I wrote or meant. You wrote that most ASR members haven't posted blind test results for gear that they own, as if that was a problem. I wrote that I don't care that most ASR members haven't done that. I only care whether a post's claims needs a blind test to verify.

This isn't championship rhetoric competition or hammering out a Mideast peace treaty.

All a poster needs to do is add 'but this was done sighted, so I might be wrong' to their claim.

Here, I'll even supply a handy shorthand that users can tack onto their sentences as needed:
ds;mbw

Sorry, that was sloppy of me. I didn't mean to say you personally don't care about blind testing, generally speaking, as if it were irrelevant in any case. I get what you are saying.

However, some individuals may appreciate seeing more blind test results presented on ASR. Others, including yourself it seems, "don't care" and aren't fussed about it either way. That's cool.

(And note btw, I added just that type of caveat in my tag line for anyone to reference if I'm referring to sighted listening impressions).

 

[voodooless]

When did I say that this expression is humiliating?It's funny,I still laugh!

This came up as an example of such. Maybe I misunderstood.

As for the truth,what do you suggest doing if someone does not accept truth?Nail it to his head?Tar and feathers?
(it's been a very dark time in our European history where people was tortured and killed if they didn't accept the established truth,I hope we moved past that).

Well, that is I think exactly what we should figure out . Preferably without making a mess. Because otherwise, why engage at all?

 

[Killingbeans]

Truth don't need defenders,it's self sufficient.

Assuming you're allowed access to it. It's easy to bury.

 

[voodooless]

Assuming you're allowed access to it. It's easy to bury.

It (the truth) also doesn’t care about your feelings: That’s another one that usually doesn’t go well in an argument with people . Something about that leads to ad homonyms very quickly

 

[Sokel]

Assuming you're allowed access to it. It's easy to bury.

You can bury the words but your ears will bleed,like with the wrong gear in a bad room
I t will reveal itself the hard way.

 

[tomelex]

On that occasion if I remember correctly, I was comparing two dacs, Benchmark and a Weiss perhaps, although there is a little Audient in the photograph.
SergeAuckland of this very forum helped with the choice of meter and set-up.
Keith

Yeah, suppose you were going straight into the power amp, so best if your meter has an audio response passband, and using a test cd with test tones stepping slowly as individual tones from 20hz to 20khz in reasonable increments and measuring at the input to the power amp for better than 0.1 dB match between the two DACs then that meter is enough to do a reasonable test as far as level matching at all the critical audio frequencies, especially 50Hz where you are at. Good enough for a fair test between the DACs IMO.

 

[Shadrach]

One of my first unsighted, level matched attempts,

Keith

What did you think about what you heard?
I assume you've tried file based ABX with a player such as foobar or perhaps Roon if it does that?
There's been a lot of posts about the strictness of the test conditions before such a test could be viewed as evidence.
Yes it's important but for someone who just wants to find out if they can hear a difference even badly done tests are worth something.
Unless one is deaf or completely deluded it becomes apparent just how similar a lot of equipment is.

 

[DonR]

Unless one is deaf or completely deluded it becomes apparent just how similar a lot of equipment is.

Delusion is often proportional to one's investment - time or money.

 

[Killingbeans]

You can bury the words but your ears will bleed,like with the wrong gear in a bad room
I t will reveal itself the hard way.

Nahhh... the power of mental adaptation disguised as the concept of "burn-in" will likely keep most of it buried.

And even if it's agonizing enough to reveal itself, most people won't ever recognize what it's telling them. They'll just uses it as an excuse for constant upgraditis and keep the spiral of confusion going. There's always some snake-oil product that promises to make everything better by magic, and it does... for a while, until the expectation bias wears off, and then they'll go looking for a new fix. Rinse and repeat.

 

[xnor]

Part of it will be to first understand what drives their view and work from that perspective toward something that can relate to.

From a "subjectivist" standpoint I can understand how measurements get rejected because they correlate with perceived sound quality so poorly. Measurements need to get really bad before you start hearing clear differences in non-blind, non-comparative settings with listeners that want to enjoy the experience instead of training to hear differences*. And even if there are clear differences, the brain quickly adjusts if there is no comparison against a reference.

Ignorance about psychoacoustics and the limits of hearing combined with biased impressions and plenty of confirmation bias, group think from relevant forums and a plethora of related biases inevitably lead to conclusions like "measurements are useless" and "you're all deaf".

When you show them bad measurements of their favorite high-end gear they will not say: "yeah, technically this thing measures badly, but my hearing is no that great anyway/it sounds good enough to me, and it makes me happy". Instead, they will feel attacked because of the implied correlation between measurements and sound quality which is effectively like calling them deaf in return.

Quite a few people pick the less uncomfortable "reality" over the real one.



*) And no amount of training can overcome physiological limitations.

 

[Sokel]

Nahhh... the power of mental adaptation disguised as the concept of "burn-in" will likely keep most of it buried.

And even if it's agonizing enough to reveal itself, most people won't ever recognize what it's telling them. They'll just uses it as an excuse for constant upgraditis and keep the spiral of confusion going. There's always some snake-oil product that promises to make everything better by magic, and it does... for a while, until the expectation bias wears off, and then they'll go looking for a new fix. Rinse and repeat.

Living with irritating sound is like living with someone you hate.It doesn't end well and magic does nothing.
Nice sound is a recipe for good mood,and people around you get that profit too.

As we talk about tests,the first test I do with every new piece of gear (after I decide I like it's looks,I'm super superficial,I know) is let it play for hours while I listen to it doing various things.
At the end I give it a critical listening too along with measurements,both acoustically (REW) and electronically (Multitone analyzer,etc) if I'm confident enough (as a total newbie).
But the later ONLY if has succeeded to keep me in a good mood and don't irritate me.
I don't think that there is a living creature that can stand bad sound for long.

 

[Killingbeans]

I don't think that there is a living creature that can stand bad sound for long.

Tell that to the myriad of normies who listen to music using the tiny built in speakers of their smartphones

Like @xnor points out above, most people have no reference for comparison when it comes to some pretty aggravating issues in their playback system, and therefore their brains are happy to accept it as the new normal as soon as it becomes familiar to them.

 

[Galliardist]

I don't think that there is a living creature that can stand bad sound for long.

I've spoken to people who lived in the age when you had early radio and the acoustic gramophone to choose from, and they were astounded by the wonder that they could hear so much music performed well that never got played in concerts and were beyond their and their friends' ability to play. It wasn't bad sound to them, at all.

Context counts for a lot.