• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,195
Likes
11,808
View attachment 245994
You know what the above proves?
It proves (at best) that you could tell the CJ from Benchmark! that's all.
The CJ may have some distinguishing attributes that you could pick out.
You believe that is Tube Sound!
I say it may be just CJ sound.
Can you pick out three different Tube amps from three SS ?
3 is just a number more than one.

Oh I agree. It's just one test, one tube preamp. Anyone can take from it what they want.

I mean...it could be just a coincidence that it was a tube preamp that had sonic attributes often attributed to tube amplification...:)

I'd feel fairly confident that in a similar test I could have picked out my previous tube pre-amps from the Benchmark as well (among them a locally built tube preamp and a modded Audible Illusions). But unfortunately I don't have them anymore.
 

CAS II

New Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
3
Likes
0
Hello, I am new here and have a general question. I have read multiple negative comments calling others “audiofools”, etc. and am wondering if there is a website for the “audiofools” who DO believe cables, etc. make a difference spend their time criticizing those who do NOT believe certain cables, etc. make a difference?

I wonder if perhaps there is not such a site because it would seem that if an enthusiast loves their system they would spend any spare time they had listening versus going to a forum and writing negative things about those who are happy with their sound. I respect those of you who have the knowledge and expertise to scientifically measure electronics, but not everything can be measured or explained.

I have had a difficult time thinking of an analogy but take for example, megalithic stones that weigh 100 tons that cannot be lifted by any modern equipment yet those stones were moved many miles thousands of years ago and there is no explanation for how it was done. It is a subject I enjoy thinking about and I have my theories but I would not want to waste time arguing with someone about it.

Someday someone may be able to figure it out how those stones were moved and what if someday someone determines there is a way to measure why some cables sound better to one person while the same cables sound identical to another person even though each cable has identical measurements using current knowledge. Then wouldn’t those who call others audiofools feel foolish themselves?

Or perhaps another possible analogy would be religion. There are of course many religions around the world and each religion has its believers but the only people who get worked up about whether one religion is right or wrong are terrorists. This being America I believe audio enthusiasts should feel free to try different cables for example without fear of being called fools by others.
 

Chrispy

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
7,751
Likes
5,910
Location
PNW
This isn't a deluded type subjective experience based forum, tho. They do exist....it's mostly the others that do exist as a majority rather than ones like ASR which are a minority. Not everything can be measured or explained in terms of gear that is completely based on it, whut?
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,749
Likes
20,759
Location
Canada
not everything can be measured or explained.
Imaging is a tricky thing to measure but explaining it is not impossible. Otherwise measurements and tests can show most aspects of audio gear. Don't fool yourself or let fools fool you to think that tests are not valid.
another possible analogy would be religion. There are of course many religions around the world and each religion has its believers but the only people who get worked up about whether one religion is right or wrong are terrorists.
Please leave religion at the door when you come in. In any capacity religion is a no-go subject at ASR.
 

Inner Space

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,285
Likes
2,938
We would be very happy to discuss the differences you can hear with cables or anything else. Just do a basic honesty check first - show us that you can hear the differences without looking.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,749
Likes
20,759
Location
Canada
Hello, I am new here and have a general question. I have read multiple negative comments calling others “audiofools”, etc. and am wondering if there is a website for the “audiofools” who DO believe cables, etc. make a difference spend their time criticizing those who do NOT believe certain cables, etc. make a difference?
O' for sure there are websites that are populated with subjective peeps. They wax poetically about their cables and other snake oil and come here sometimes to pull our legs and try and make us frustrated and angry. ASR is a objective website. We use science to test and explain audio gear. It is not for fantasy ideas, assumptions and analogies.
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,200
Likes
16,982
Location
Riverview FL
I have read multiple negative comments calling others “audiofools”, etc. and am wondering if there is a website for the “audiofools” who DO believe cables, etc. make a difference spend their time criticizing those who do NOT believe certain cables, etc. make a difference?

Maybe jump in here:


If I have the story correct (I get to be wrong), @amirm was a co-founder of the site, provided his usual objectivity, and ended up being asked to leave.
 

jae

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
1,208
Likes
1,508
This being America I believe audio enthusiasts should feel free to try different cables for example without fear of being called fools by others.
By that logic, can't one be free to ridicule as well?
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,200
Likes
16,982
Location
Riverview FL

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,200
Likes
16,982
Location
Riverview FL

Ken1951

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
850
Likes
1,775
Location
Blacksburg, VA
Another week, another drive-by. Mayhap someone looking to earn their merit badge of banning by ASR at Audiogon or some such?
 

Killingbeans

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
4,089
Likes
7,547
Location
Bjerringbro, Denmark.
Hello, I am new here and have a general question. I have read multiple negative comments calling others “audiofools”, etc. and am wondering if there is a website for the “audiofools” who DO believe cables, etc. make a difference spend their time criticizing those who do NOT believe certain cables, etc. make a difference?

Good point. I'm not a big fan of the label "audiofool" either.

An yes, the hardcore subjective forums are probably less warlike than we are. Ignorance is bliss in more than one sense after all.

That being said, it's not uncommon to see threads on "the other side" expressing how ASR is nothing but a bunch of extremist lunatics.

Humans gonna human. Luckily most of the communities on both sides have their fair share of both devil's advocates and mediators.

Or perhaps another possible analogy would be religion. There are of course many religions around the world and each religion has its believers but the only people who get worked up about whether one religion is right or wrong are terrorists.

There's also a lot of atheists who were brought up in batshit crazy conservative families and managed to see reason as they began living their own lives.

When you've been dragged through indoctrination like that, it's only natural to have some sort of resentment towards the people who keep the system going.

EDIT: Sorry for taking the bait on this subject. If this starts going in the direction of a heated discussion, I'll slam the brakes.

This being America

Huh? o_O

I believe audio enthusiasts should feel free to try different cables for example without fear of being called fools by others.

Why should they fear that? Nobody is forcing them to learn about physics and electronics.

If they want to continue enjoying the effects of suggestion, they can just do so. ASR isn't going to hunt them down, and nobody is demanding that they listen to us.

Ignorance in some form or another is present in all humans. If you feel the need to eliminate some that has to do with audio gear, ASR is ready to help you. But if you don't have that need, you are free to go somewhere else for advice.

But yes.... not fools. Just humans.
 

Capitol C

Active Member
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
164
Likes
189
Location
Washington, DC

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
CAS11 please google and visit whats best forum , they are looking forward to your membership.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,383
Likes
24,749
Location
Alfred, NY
High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,523
Likes
37,054
High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
But what happens when the box is gold or silver?
 

Ken Tajalli

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
1,995
Likes
1,772
Location
London UK
High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
If you were referring to the examples being discussed , they were pre-amps.
So although you are correct, but it doesn't apply in this case.
 

CAS II

New Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
3
Likes
0
I am not doubting the intelligence of anyone. In fact I would love to be an engineer but there is no way that I could be one. I do not spend $5,000 on a cable, that is absurd and I do not see how that could be justified and I would have no choice to call those listeners Audiofools which is why I make most of my own cables and I modify most of my equipment.

If there was any point in this it would be to express my belief that prejudice may prevent others from deciding for themselves what may or may not make a difference in the sound of their system.

To me changes in the sound of a system are like peeling an onion little layer by layer. Sometimes there are several layers at once while other times there is but one layer and layers can be added back and that is what I love about this hobby and it is bothersome to be told that it is all in my imagination as if I were crazy.

For example the Furutech NCF Clear Line. No, there are no wires connected inside from one terminal to another the effect could not be measured.

However, I have a way of testing changes to my system and it involves listening for certain words or instruments in certain songs that were once unintelligible are now crystal clear. So perhaps others have a similar test.

I just wanted to express my opinion and not cause a war of words. Now if anyone is interested I will bet $1,000 to any who is willing to come to my house in Houston and stand behind my equipment rack while I am turned the opposite direction and or blindfolded while they plug and unplug the Furutech NCF Clear Line. If I am not correct when whether the Clear Line is plugged or unplugged I will pay $1,000 if I am correct I will collect my $1,000.
 
Top Bottom