Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Narnian]

Well I have spent the last few hours listening to my 3800H with the following test combinations with several songs.

1. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->3800H->Revel M105
2. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->3800H->Revel M105
3. Tidal->3800H (HEOS)->Revel M105
4. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->Aiyima A07 amp->Revel M105

And the winner is … a 4-way tie. I cannot tell the difference. I played the songs through to get an overall feel as well as selected individual instruments and compared snippets to see if the bass through cymbals and voices sounded any different.

So my hopes of a better DAC helping to mitigate my hearing loss are dashed.

If anything #3 would have the advantage since no extra costs are involved. HEOS has moved up from a D- in my book to a C grade with an improved interface in the new X Series. But I do like the WIIM interface better which I give a B to so it may stay.

Also the Aiyima amp is a winner in its own right. I was not expecting a $60 amp to perform that well.

 

[stupidvillager]

Yes, a superior measuring DAC is a benefit whether external amps are used or not.

So these test that bypass the DAC to show the performance of the amplifier section, if we throw the DAC in the mix, the measured performance of the amplifier will improve?

 

[beren777]

If anything #3 would have the advantage since no extra costs are involved. HEOS has moved up from a D- in my book to a C grade with an improved interface in the new X Series. But I do like the WIIM interface better which I give a B to so it may stay.

I've enjoyed using HEOS on my 3700H as well. I believe they've improved the software over the past year and while quirky from time to time, it mostly "just works." My main complaint is that I can't find a way to let it autodiscover music to keep playing after my playlist is exhausted when using Tidal as a source.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Well I have spent the last few hours listening to my 3800H with the following test combinations with several songs.

1. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->3800H->Revel M105
2. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->3800H->Revel M105
3. Tidal->3800H (HEOS)->Revel M105
4. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->Aiyima A07 amp->Revel M105

And the winner is … a 4-way tie. I cannot tell the difference. I played the songs through to get an overall feel as well as selected individual instruments and compared snippets to see if the bass through cymbals and voices sounded any different.

So my hopes of a better DAC helping to mitigate my hearing loss are dashed.

If anything #3 would have the advantage since no extra costs are involved. HEOS has moved up from a D- in my book to a C grade with an improved interface in the new X Series. But I do like the WIIM interface better which I give a B to so it may stay.

Also the Aiyima amp is a winner in its own right. I was not expecting a $60 amp to perform that well.

....but how does it compare to the x3600H or the old x3700H?

 

[DMill]

Well I have spent the last few hours listening to my 3800H with the following test combinations with several songs.

1. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->3800H->Revel M105
2. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->3800H->Revel M105
3. Tidal->3800H (HEOS)->Revel M105
4. Tidal->WIIM->(optical)->Sabaj A20D DAC->(analog)->Aiyima A07 amp->Revel M105

And the winner is … a 4-way tie. I cannot tell the difference. I played the songs through to get an overall feel as well as selected individual instruments and compared snippets to see if the bass through cymbals and voices sounded any different.

So my hopes of a better DAC helping to mitigate my hearing loss are dashed.

If anything #3 would have the advantage since no extra costs are involved. HEOS has moved up from a D- in my book to a C grade with an improved interface in the new X Series. But I do like the WIIM interface better which I give a B to so it may stay.

Also the Aiyima amp is a winner in its own right. I was not expecting a $60 amp to perform that well.

Seems like #4 would be the winner in you factor in cost.

 

[Narnian]

....but how does it compare to the x3600H or the old x3700H?

No idea. Only owned a Sonos sound bar for the last 10 years prior to a couple of months ago.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Half seems like a big number. Many ASR readers don’t even have an account to join the conversation. I didn’t have one for 3-4 years.

People also need to know nobody on ASR is background checked. How would you know how many of these posts are hired guns to bash Amir’s work from the many PR firms SU have access to. They’re a big company, and if you don’t think they hire people to do online PR you’re naive. From YouTube, Reddit, twitter, to posts on ASR, they’re out there. It’s good to evaluate agenda of each poster first.

Denon hiring people to do online PR is one thing. Expecting the vast majority of their customers coming from messageboards is wild dream. It's not happening.

My agenda is clear and inline with Amir’s: better performance equipment at reasonable price.
Don't we all want that? ...and what's reasonable to one isn't reasonable to another, both in terms of reasonable performance and reasonable price.

Wouldn't it be great if every car manufacturer's product got better with every new release? It doesn't happen. My guess is, the x3900H will be that next step in the direction you want in relation to the x3600H.

If not, then get the Onkyo RZ50. It's right on par with the original x3700H in SINAD.

 

[Narnian]

Seems like #4 would be the winner in you factor in cost.

I still need an AVR for movies. Plus I have two subs so there are other logistical issues. The 3800 let’s me do two profiles, one for 2 channel and one for 7.x.x, so I can tailor the cross overs, base management, etc. #4 was a little weak at the bottom but that was accounted for since that setup did not use a sub.

 

[RF Air]

Hello, first time posting (be gentle). I own the Denon 2700H and was planing to upgrade to 3800H. Amir you appear to have no test for the 2700H but (and everybody else how may have experienced both amps, please chime in) but woulden't be safe to say the 3800H is an huge improvement to the 2700H? It looks like from the 3800H performs in the test is lower in some corners but is this and audiuble difference in normal use compared to the 3700/3600H amps?

I am trying to evaluate if this isn't a worthy upgrade from 2700H since I can't get the 3700 in Iceland.

Regards from Iceland.

Welcome! I'm a new member as well and have followed this forum for a long time. It's an interesting question which I believe many here are trying to decide. For me, I considered the 3800H after seeing the 3700 was great with the testing results but had it's 4K Video problems that were eventually corrected by Denon.

When the 3800H tests came back with a regressive decision to install lower performing DAC's, it troubled me. The improvement that appeals to me is the 4K video is no longer an issue, the addition of 4 Subwoofer's and the DIRAC ability for later release. It's compelling to know that the product has merits as an AVR, but if you are bothered by the compromise of the DAC's, it's not as satisfying to make an investment knowing that value was undermined by the lower performing DAC's.

For me, I am waiting on the 4800H to be released. I have seen here in the Forum that the 4800H it is being built in Japan and it has a new Amplifier construction which is comparable to the Flagship Denon AVR. **I suspect, based on the recent withdrawal of the 4800H on the Denon US website that the product will be delayed further. This withdrawal from the website coincided shortly after the release of the 3800H, so if it is a marketing, or production decision to delay the 4800H, it's not clear. My hope (fantasy) is that there may be a response by Denon to address the Spec's by improving the DAC's. It's pure speculation; it would be helpful if the company offered more information.

I can use the the greater Amplifier Output of the 4800H for the surround speakers. I use external McIntosh Amps for my KEF Main L&R and Rear L&R Speakers, and had used my current Denon AVR-5600 (very old 5.1 Legacy 1987) for the KEF Center. I recently replaced my dead Velodyne Sub and added 2 REL S-Series Subs and have considered adding 2 more Subs for Center and Rear Channels. This is why the 4 Sub Out is appealing and I am looking to add up to 4 more Speakers for the Atmos features available with the Denon AVR Amps for the 9.4 configuration.

The 3800H is a nicely featured AVR unit and my experience with Denon has been very good in the past. I am just considering if my next Denon purchase is "good enough".

**EDIT: The X4800H is back on the US Denon Website, it is still listed as coming soon.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

When the 3800H tests came back with a regressive decision to install lower performing DAC's, it troubled me. The improvement that appeals to me is the 4K video is no longer an issue, the addition of 4 Subwoofer's and the DIRAC ability for later release. It's compelling to know that the product has merits as an AVR, but if you are bothered by the compromise of the DAC's, it's not as satisfying to make an investment knowing that value was undermined by the lower performing DAC's.

I don’t think they implemented 48Gb/s of HDMI 2.1. They did something like 40gig as I read somewhere here. So, it may not be future proof.

 

[ad_fletch]

I can use the the greater Amplifier Output of the 4800H for the surround speakers. I use external McIntosh Amps for my KEF Main L&R and Rear L&R Speakers, and had used my current Denon AVR-5600 (very old 5.1 Legacy 1987) for the KEF Center. I recently replaced my dead Velodyne Sub and added 2 REL S-Series Subs and have considered adding 2 more Subs for Center and Rear Channels. This is why the 4 Sub Out is appealing and I am looking to add up to 4 more Speakers for the Atmos features available with the Denon AVR Amps for the 9.4 configuration.

Hello @RF Air and welcome to you too.

I think this forum has caused many of us to doubt our setups, but then go on to measure them and benefit accordingly.

Anyway one question about yours - why keep an 80s AVR in there to drive your centre channel? Surely the 4800H is more than capable of that, esp when it’s not driving the mains?

 

[Deleted member 19122]

Lots of Denon 3700/4700/6700 user purchase external amps as they wish to take advantage of the new full Preamp mode. It allows quality amps paired with the AVR to provide superior dynamic range, better performance, a cooler running Denon AVR and almost 80W less energy usage by the AVR. Many Denon users have purchased NCORE/Purifi based amps from Buckeye Amps and other manufacturers to pair with pre-amp mode for a superior sound experience. Posters who believe few Denon 3700/4700/6700 owners actually use external amps are uninformed.

The next question usually seen posted by someone who purchased a Denon 3700/4700/6700 is what external amp should I buy. ASR has answered these questions hundreds of times.

LoL if you really think most buyers of these Denons bother with external amps...talk about living in a bubble,and talking about saving watts but adding external amps...sorry but you haven't the faintest...

 

[Rockman2]

Something else happened with the Marantz Cinema 50. Best Buy had them in stock and on their website yesterday. Today you can not see it on their site. It was removed. Wonder why?

 

[Trell]

4 independent sub outputs are very nice to have if you are serious about home theatre

I got two subwoofers and I’m not serious about home theatre?

 

[Rockman2]

Welcome! I'm a new member as well and have followed this forum for a long time. It's an interesting question which I believe many here are trying to decide. For me, I considered the 3800H after seeing the 3700 was great with the testing results but had it's 4K Video problems that were eventually corrected by Denon.

When the 3800H tests came back with a regressive decision to install lower performing DAC's, it troubled me. The improvement that appeals to me is the 4K video is no longer an issue, the addition of 4 Subwoofer's and the DIRAC ability for later release. It's compelling to know that the product has merits as an AVR, but if you are bothered by the compromise of the DAC's, it's not as satisfying to make an investment knowing that value was undermined by the lower performing DAC's.

For me, I am waiting on the 4800H to be released. I have seen here in the Forum that the 4800H it is being built in Japan and it has a new Amplifier construction which is comparable to the Flagship Denon AVR. **I suspect, based on the recent withdrawal of the 4800H on the Denon US website that the product will be delayed further. This withdrawal from the website coincided shortly after the release of the 3800H, so if it is a marketing, or production decision to delay the 4800H, it's not clear. My hope (fantasy) is that there may be a response by Denon to address the Spec's by improving the DAC's. It's pure speculation; it would be helpful if the company offered more information.

I can use the the greater Amplifier Output of the 4800H for the surround speakers. I use external McIntosh Amps for my KEF Main L&R and Rear L&R Speakers, and had used my current Denon AVR-5600 (very old 5.1 Legacy 1987) for the KEF Center. I recently replaced my dead Velodyne Sub and added 2 REL S-Series Subs and have considered adding 2 more Subs for Center and Rear Channels. This is why the 4 Sub Out is appealing and I am looking to add up to 4 more Speakers for the Atmos features available with the Denon AVR Amps for the 9.4 configuration.

The 3800H is a nicely featured AVR unit and my experience with Denon has be very good. I am just considering if my next Denon purchase is "good enough".

**EDIT: The X4800H is back on the US Denon Website, it is still listed as coming soon.

The 4800 is still on the website at the bottom of the AVR page.

 

[Urvile]

LoL if you really think most buyers of these Denons bother with external amps...talk about living in a bubble,and talking about saving watts but adding external amps...sorry but you haven't the faintest...

I'm one, Just bought a 3800H and I have a Buckeye Purifi 3 channel on order.

 

[DMill]

I got two subwoofers and I’m not serious about home theatre?

It seems that you can have 4 with this AVR. So amazing that you could spend easily $3k on 4 subs to run off this disappointing device. Something better is in the future I hope.

 

[Trell]

It seems that you can have 4 with this AVR. So amazing that you could spend easily $3k on 4 subs to run off this disappointing device. Something better is in the future I hope.

I'm still gonna hold on to my 2015 Denon model AVR-X4200W for some time more. The 4800 is 140% more expensive than my 4200 with little extra showing for it for me apart from 4 independent subwoofers out (no place for that in my living room apart from the two I got) and using the Audyssey App for adjustment of the RoomEQ. The 4700 is "only" 83% more expensive with the only thing interesting me is the Audyssey App. There are more amplifiers that I won't use either as my setup is 5.1, and is an actual detriment considering the heat this generates in a cramped box.

 

[dlaloum]

110 W vs 125 W makes little difference, that's about 0.5 dB difference that people can barely notice.

Whether it would be ok for 4 surround speakers will depend on the distance, speaker sensitivity and the spl you desired. In order to know for sure you should use an online calculator to figure it out. Keep in mind that even the 200 W ATI amp can only give you just under 3 dB more spl, all else being equal, though taking loads off the AVR is always a good thing, and external power amps typically can handle speakers with low impedance and/or high phase angles better, to much better..

Sure, but the additional current the PSU supplies could make the difference - especially given that the AVR is NOT running the fronts.

 

[dlaloum]

53 pages later, before things get forgotten or mixed up, I would like to summarize the 3800's performance degradation based on the test results. One can easily see that it is not just "SINAD", the fact is, the 3800's measured performance is 2 to 10 dB worse across the board, the only exceptions are Dynamic range, both offer about 108 dB at 2 V, based on AES17, and the 32 tones input test, the two are within 1 bit resolution of each other's score.

Whether some or all of the differences are audible for "normal use" would depends on the individual's conditions for their normal use. Again, I am only comparing measured performance of the following items, obviously the 3800 offers some new features, one being the preamp mode that is more flexible, and very useful and may benefit those who only need to use external amps for the LCR channels.

Summary of the measured pre out performance of the X3800H vs the X3700H with the AKM chip:

SINAD lowered by:

- a little more than 10 dB at about 2 V
- about 6 dB at below 1 V

Dynamic range:

- about the same for both (108.189 dB/108.484 dB for the 3800 vs108.933 dB/107.956 dB for the 3700)

32 Tone input signal:

- about 1 bit resolution less than the 3700

Linearity:

- 2 bits less in accuracy than the 3700

Intermodulation distortion:

- about 8-10 dB higher at -5 dBFS generator level, but the gap narrows at below generator level -20 dBFS and lower.

THD+N vs Frequency:

- about 8-10 times higher than that of the 3700, that is, about 0.007% vs 0.07% between 20 to about 7 kHz. At least 7 times higher than the 3700's from 7 to 10 kHz. I won't bother comparing >10 kHz because the harmonics will be in the ultra sonic range.

Crosstalk:

- about 2-4 dB worse than the 3700

BUt, to be pragmatic, we are in fact comparing the X3700PCM to the X3800... not the X3700AKM - AKM chips are only now becoming available to manufacturers, and will take another few months before they are really available on new devices available to purchase!

Given the evolutionary nature of D&M's generational process - the designing of new DAC boards for the X3700 must have been a major disruption - I wonder whether they kept the X3700 boards in the X3800... or perhaps used only minor mods....

Anyone have service manuals?