Yes, all of those unlucky sods, that buy 3800H and will use low gain amps on reference levels.
They will go into the history of audio as "The Sad Five" , as this is how many people will probably be affected.
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Denon AVR-X3800H Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Yes, all of those unlucky sods, that buy 3800H and will use low gain amps on reference levels.
They will go into the history of audio as "The Sad Five" , as this is how many people will probably be affected.
Amir did not test at which output the pre-amp clips so the preamp might just as well go to 4Vrms and we wouldn't know.
Bren Derlin
Active Member
Either the DAC measurements matter, or they don't. What you're saying is, "they don't" unless the price is $400 higher because you don't want to spend $1,600 on an AVR. If that's the case, then get the x2700-x2800. It'll be quite a bit less expensive (x2700H = $700 on accessories4less.com)...
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Perfectly put !
markk
Member
This is probably not correct. the 3x00 series is the cheapest model with full pre out. If you think about long term value, you can spend money on high quality amps, but the processor becomes obsolete more quickly. I think there are a fair number interested in the 3x00 series exactly for that reason. I would prefer more money spent on the DACs, even if it had a crummier amp section.
But hey, maybe I'm just one of those five...
You can still buy Hypex Ncore.
markk
Member
That's the point. I can buy Hypex or Purifi but can't upgrade the DAC. So I'm stuck debating whether to buy a product with a subpar DAC. Yes, I probably won't hear a difference under most circumstances, but in my mind I know this is mediocre engineering and bean counting. And yes, that will color my poor, tortured unhappy audiophile soul...
There is something to be said for good engineering instead of "good enough" engineering. Some products punch above there weight so to speak, like a Topping DAC or a Buckeye amp. And then there are products that just say, "it's good enough for 95%, call it a day..."
Bren Derlin
Active Member
Amsweing your own questions? How cool is that!
What benefit to the manufacturer would having a lower SINAD bring? Riiiight, $$$$$!
Companies aren't allowed to earn profits. SU should be a non-profit entity.
I have never heard anyone outside of ASR suggest Denon is a premium brand. They're more like, "Denon is a mainstream consumer/Best Buy brand with average performance along with Yamaha for the general HT user".
They consider Anthem, Arcam, NAD, Rotel, etc, and to a lesser degree, Marantz, to be premium brands. And to go a step up from that, others would say separates are the ultra high-end market.
I would consider most people gravitate to Denon because it's a familiar heritage brand with solid no-frill reliability that works without fussiness. Case in point, my 19 year old Denon 3805AVR is still going strong, and currently powering my Revel M16 speakers. I can't imagine that old AVR would test better than anything on the ASR AVR SINAD list. ...and damn, it sounds good. The only reason I want to replace that old AVR is the lack of HDMI inputs, and the fact we're going to upgrade our old Sammy Plasma to a 4K 65" OLED at some point.
If someone is going for supreme sound quality, Denon, right or wrong, is rarely considered outside of this forum.
If the sound quality of the x3800H is truly bad as these tests suggest, consumers will let Denon know with excessive returns and lists of bad reviews.
I posted and expressed my disagreement with Amir and did not feel not welcome here. You are welcome to do that. To your point about listening, for what ASR measured, such as distortions, noise, frequency response etc., there is no need to resort to subjective measurements in most cases.
In some marginal cases, such as 60 dB SINAD, or a gradual roll off from 10 kHz such as Marantz filter pick, then subjective measurements may have some value.
I'm sort of in this boat, my previous AVR was cheap (Onkyo TX-NR656) , didn't have any pre-outs, and though not measured here, I'm sure would not have done well.
I see the AVR-X3800H on it's own a step up, and when I get my Buckeye Purifi 3-channel amp (pre-ordered seven weeks ago), it will be a major step up.
Won't be perfect, but someday there will be an affordable AVP that does have all these features, and measures well. Till then? It will do.
Bren Derlin
Active Member
No one is forcing you to buy the x3800H....
Exactly, SINAD, IMD, 32 tone test, THD+N versus frequency all show about 8 to 10 dB degradation. It makes sense too, if a single sine tone shows 10 dB degradation, one would expect about the same for the 32 tone test because the amp doesn't know the difference, it can only amplify one voltage at a time
. In a way one can predict the other..
OP
- Thread Starter
- #993
There is nothing extraordinary about saying distortion at these levels can be audible. What is extraordinary is to say that it never is.
He hasn't. And this is not his field of expertise. He has read a few paper and is telling you what he has read. He doesn't know for example that hearing non-linear distortion requires training (a requirement in lossy codec testing for example).
But sure, if you want to get a group of trained listeners and work to find critical content that is revealing of distortion and post that study, then go for it. I suggest following ITU BS1116 standard for the protocol. Otherwise a few 1 kHz tone tests is not remotely sufficient to prove inaudibility.
And remember, you have to emulate all the characteristics of this AVR form its jitter to IMD and wideband distortion:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #994
To be clear, I can't with straight face test unbalanced output above 2 volt. It is just not a (reasonably) valid signal for that interface.
markk
Member
We are using the term "distortion," as if it was one. I spent a number of years long ago doing probably over a thousand distortion measurements on dozens of different driver units. What I can say is that it is not at all a single entity. There are a wide variety of audible and inaudible distortions. The great thing about running all those measurements is that I listened as well, yes, I used my ears, along with the measurements. Listening to a wide variety of distorted signals damaged my brain permantently has taught me a lot about what distortions might and might not be audible. It would be very difficult to connect a particular SINAD number to audible distortion some or all circumstances. Even if you ran a blinded, randomized controlled trial it would be hard to know how generalized it could be. Being a nonlinear phenomena makes level dependent, frequency dependent phenomena very different from linear distortion, which is more or less the same at all levels.
But you can make some generalizations. One of them is that, below a certain level, nonlinear distortions become inaudible. You can argue where that level is, but the reality it depends on the frequency distribution of the signal as well as the level.
Given that, since it is quite easy with modern off the shelf DAC's to get to 100+ dynamic range/SINAD without too much cost, why not engineer this level into most of your products, especially a midrange enthusiast products. Then you don't have to worry about "would there be audible distortion?" Yes, someone will always ask for another 10 dB but I bet this thread would have taken a much different direction if the SINAD was 10-15 dB better.
But you can make some generalizations. One of them is that, below a certain level, nonlinear distortions become inaudible. You can argue where that level is, but the reality it depends on the frequency distribution of the signal as well as the level.
Given that, since it is quite easy with modern off the shelf DAC's to get to 100+ dynamic range/SINAD without too much cost, why not engineer this level into most of your products, especially a midrange enthusiast products. Then you don't have to worry about "would there be audible distortion?" Yes, someone will always ask for another 10 dB but I bet this thread would have taken a much different direction if the SINAD was 10-15 dB better.
Some advice please......I see these numbers and am worried about my decision. I had a Marantz SR8015 a 7 channel and 1 sub setup w/Marin Logan LCR speakers. Their Motion 60XTI line. Very efficient at 94db. It sounded great but had a little distortion or crackling in the highs at higher volumes watching movies. I had an idea to drop down in watts on the receiver and run an amp for the LCR channels using the AVR for the 4 surround speakers. I thought I would actually get better sound not stressing the AVR to power all the channels. I bought an ATI 3 Channel amp @200wpc. I also bought a Denon 4700 but returned it when I heard the new models were released. It was un opened so I got lucky. Thought I would buy a Denon 4800. The SR8015 seems to test well but the lower AVR's in Denon and Marantz seem to have lower grade DAC's and other components. Have I made a mistake? I mainly watch movies and love the detail in the sound separation. Like hearing the subtle sound of a laser cannon of in the distance and seeing that cannon on the screen. Thanks in advance!
markk
Member
So hey, are you going to offer to have this tested? I was thinking of picking up this same amp as well. If it tests well, then makes a good amp as you're planning. If it tests really well, I was thinking of picking up a second and pairing it with a miniDSP flex or flex eight for an active three way...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #998
That kind of sound is a problem with the speaker, not the AVR/amp. The Amp would likely shut down before it makes any such noises. Your speakers simply don't have the dynamic capability you need for your movie watching.
Well I should have asked this question sooner but, I have every thing at this point again except the AVR. Will I notice any further loss of quality paring the ATI amp with one of the lower cost AVR's like the 4700, 4800 or Cinema 50 vs the SR8015? Thanks
OP
- Thread Starter
- #1,000
I am not sure I am understanding your question. If you are using an external amp, then I would not go up the line to get more power.
If you are using an external amp, then I would not go up the line to get more power.Similar threads
