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$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

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MKR

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I went on a similar journey some years ago, and landed (somewhat surprisingly) on the M2 as my choice. They've given me zero reasons to question that decison in the years since.

Won't argue the ugly/WAF factor of the M2 (though my spouse likes them in a dedicated room). I would disagree with the notion that they're harsh, though--at least with the Crown I-tech tunings--they're a tad bright out of the box.

I'm using brightness to refer to a tonal trait that can be eq'd, while I think of harshness as something caused by diffraction sources, driver breakup modes, and resonances; those latter issues may persist through any attempts to EQ. The M2 does not suffer from those issues and is very EQable.

The directivity behavior also suggest that EQing them to the desired in-room response will yield the expected sonic results; i.e. You should be able to easily dial in the exact tonality you desire, the same as the other top-tier speakers on your list.

I've heard the Salon 2's on multiple occasions (was planning to buy them), 228be's, 4367s (if I didn't have the M2 I would have the 4367), Genelec 1237A (I believe), B&O Beolab 90, and a wide range of Monitor Audio, Kef (various Reference series, but not the blades), Wilson, B&W, Martin Logan, Meridian, Lyngdorf, PSB, and similar speakers. To my ears, the M2 is superior to all of them (except perhaps the 4367). Definitely, don't take my word for it, but if you value accuracy, refinement, and uncompressed output from an end-game speaker, I wouldn't eliminate the M2 if there's anyway you could audition them.

I haven't heard the Kii's, D&Ds, or newer Genelecs, so I can't say if the M2 is in the same league or not, nor will I speculate. I will say the that the relative lack of instantaneous compression below 200hz is striking with the M2, and based on the compression sweeps we've seen for some of the other options above, I question if they could keep pace with the M2 in that critical range; given the amount and amplitude of musical information in those frequencies, I wouldn't be too dismissive of the potential for audible differences and a possible preference for the more dynamic speaker.

Annnnnd... that's my 2 cents on the topic. :)

Apologies if I missed it previously, in what region of the world are you located?
@Bugal1998 Great stuff sir, very helpful, thank you. The fact that you have actually auditioned so many on my short list certainly gives your opinion more weight

Note I have ruled out the D&D, at least one less to deal with. I expect the Kiis will also have to drop as I am certain I will need the BXT which pushes them out of my budget.

And thanks for the comments on the harshness I mentioned with the M2s,well understood
 

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OP states that the speakers will be dual use, both for music and home theatre. For that, you´re not recommending cardioid speakers on a HT environment. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that?

And why do you say cardioid opposite my needs? Just trying to learn.

Yes, I'm also curious why @D!sco singled out cardioids as being unsuitable. Not that I have a cardioid "dog in the fight", but I'm very interested in D!sco's reasoning. (And let's admit it, D!isco was creative enough to come up with the coolest name of any of us, so he automatically has that rarest of commodities on this site - instant credibility!)

Hey @Duke … I can get the speakers 5ft into room, no issue.

That amount of distance is GREAT for dipoles, and generally so for non-dipoles too, in my opinion.

Really cool you were also able to connect with Siegfried in person.

I have been following Siegfried Linkwitz since he first published articles in Wireless World in the late 70's. I was on the verge of becoming a dealer for Audio Artistry because I thought their dynamic dipole speakers, which Siegfried designed. But then I found out that he had dis-associated himself from Audio Artistry, and my interest faded.

As to your dealership of a dipole speaker line, feel free to contact me directly about this, no issue from my side.

Thank you, will do, but imo the JBL M2 (plus a pair of subs) is arguably a better fit for your situation.

As to Spatial X4 vs X5, it is actually the X3 that is the larger, but X3 has a powered LF driver.

You're absolutely right - the X3 is the big boy.
 
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srrxr71

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At this level they all use DSP and controlled directivity. Probably they all sound similar and/or can be eq’d so. Output can differ. Usability and expansion becomes the differentiator.

All of the above can grow with subs and all of the above are great.


Kiis are great but you must be able to fully expand it otherwise it’s not end game.
 
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MKR

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With something like the “giant” Genelec 8361s probably will not come close to the M2. However if you add one or two 15” subs at $5k each then they will compete. Also you will be saving $8k on the cost of the M2.

However in the end the M2 may be worth the extra $8k to you for its unique size and capability.
@srrxr71 You may be correct, I was starting to think the same. Ultimately I am going to have to find a way to audition 8361, M2, and 4367. Only way I will know for certain what my ears prefer. Starting to think I will have to go on a week long cross country speaker audition tour. Anyone want to join me?
 

srrxr71

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@srrxr71 You may be correct, I was starting to think the same. Ultimately I am going to have to find a way to audition 8361, M2, and 4367. Only way I will know for certain what my ears prefer. Starting to think I will have to go on a week long cross country speaker audition tour. Anyone want to join me?
I really wish I could. Haha

I wonder if Harman has an auditioning facility. I bet they do. Genelec is at Natick,

So Harman is in LA. That sounds more tempting this time of year honestly.
 
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Absolute

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For large rooms with home theater spl requirements you should avoid all those little toys being mentioned left and right.
Forget small boxes with traditional drivers, active or passive doesn't matter.
They will compress or self-destruct in a large room with good acoustics long before you would want them too.

Whether you call them Kii, Genelec or something else isn't relevant, they're toys in this scenario. The mids and tweets are not up for the job, trust you me. Have ample experience with Kii - both with and without BXT - and can tell you they don't stand up to the task at hand for serious sound quality at loud volumes.

JBL M2 is mentioned, and while those are certainly no toys, but having DIY versions of those I would improve the design by having dedicated bass system for the lows, a second low-passed woofer close to the floor, a better suited mid-woofer and a better compression driver sewn together with phase linear filters- then it becomes cheaper, better and cooler than the originals.

But if I were me I would really look into CBT, line sources, Murphy arrays and huge constant directivity horn setups for this purpose. We're not playing with toys anymore, are we? :D

Either way the best results will only come if the room and speakers are planned as one.
 
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MKR

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See this really will come down to your belief system.

Perhaps you can find a processor which strips the digital protection. Maybe use a HD FURY device to do that. Then play with it. I’m not sure if it extracts all the channels and/or can defeat the latest protections.

It’s just headache imho. For something that is scientifically proven to not matter. Just feed the analog preamp in the monitor with a high enough signal and use the GLM volume control for output volume. Yes there are precautions you must take to ensure the A/D occurs at the highest possible quality. Once those are figured out you can rest easy that it’s fine.

Also for me music matters a lot but if my HT movie soundtrack hits an additional A/D I couldn’t care less personally. Does it sound good? Can I hear the dialog clear as crystal? That’s what matters to me.

For turntable specifically I would research digital phono preamps or if you like the sound of your current phono preamp I would run that through a A/D of my own choosing if I were very particular about that. Making sure the levels hitting the A/D are suitably high to maximize fidelity.

You may choose to not believe but the 24/192 ADC on these modern devices far surpass anything that can be delivered by a turntable. It’s just fact. Feelings may differ. Which you want to satisfy is your choice.

From my limited experimentation I feel like I can make any digital track sound like an analog turntable by simply lopping off the bottom and top octaves. It’s worth a try. No judgements about how anyone enjoys consuming their music.

Play with the pEq how you feel like. It’s the new wave of “audiophilia”. You tune your sounds to how YOU like it. Not caring about what anyone else thinks.

Not much of a tinkerer these days but some is needed. You check your in room response and play with it. Treat it. You want the system you use to be easy to use. If you have to learn a program it better be easy unless you like to tinker. I believe that aspect is what matters most in a modern 2022 system.

There are people who might say no end game system is end game without using accourate software. Others will say Trinnov. Many studios use Trinnov. That’s how they can work without GLM. For me it does basically what I need and I feel no particular need to play with any other correction systems.

The only one which tempts me is Dirac Live Bass Control. I would try to figure out a way to test it when I can access it. I wish they would just release it as software for PC/Mac.
@srrxr71 Very interesting, great points. Yeah, I expect the only way to hear a true analog ”recording“ these days is an unamplified acoustic event … else we are all just kidding ourselves
 

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Used JBLs.
JBL Project K2 S9500 for USD~$10,631.
I estimate they are over priced for the used market and the shipping expense will kill off most interested parties. But it is interesting to see what is available.
 

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Watching this thread with interest because my room about same size as OP, and I just ordered some 8C studio for 4m listening distance.

If Erin got 100dB at 4m and implied they could go louder, I don't see why (with proper wall placement) they'd be an issue at 10ft? I listen to music around 81dB, at 10ft thats a good amount of headroom. With movies and this budget, presumably one would add a center and subs as well.

Cardioid effect is only down to 100Hz so you aren't giving up the important parts by crossing over to sub, and presumably gaining a little volume?

I also have Q's about the spec:

MAX LINEAR SPL @ 1M: 106dB CONTINUOS FROM 35 HZ UPWARDS [in half space]

I don't recall ever seeing Max SPL expressed as 'linear', what is the distinction?

Would half space result in higher, lower, or same SPL compared to typical domestic listening environment? In general, but also with regard to 8C's boundary coupling.
 

srrxr71

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For large rooms with home theater spl requirements you should avoid all those little toys being mentioned left and right.
Forget small boxes with traditional drivers, active or passive doesn't matter.
They will compress or self-destruct in a large room with good acoustics long before you would want them too.

Whether you call them Kii, Genelec or something else isn't relevant, they're toys in this scenario. The mids and tweets are not up for the job, trust you me. Have ample experience with Kii - both with and without BXT - and can tell you they don't stand up to the task at hand for serious sound quality at loud volumes.

JBL M2 is mentioned, and while those are certainly no toys, but having DIY versions of those I would improve the design by having dedicated bass system for the lows, a second low-passed woofer close to the floor, a better suited mid-woofer and a better compression driver sewn together with phase linear filters- then it becomes cheaper, better and cooler than the originals.

But if I were me I would really look into CBT, line sources, Murphy arrays and huge constant directivity horn setups for this purpose. We're not playing with toys anymore, are we? :D

Either way the best results will only come if the room and speakers are planned as one.
I’ll be very honest this is a pertinent point. So I have 8341 which are woefully inadequate.

So I am going 8361. Same midrange/tweeter as 8351. Now somehow magically this one has 6dB more output than it’s implementation in the 8351 while I know the midrange/tweeter can go into protection.

I will mitigate these output limitations by sitting close.

However this is not everyone’s cup of tea.

So there the M2 has a definite advantage. If you have to go bigger in Genelec you lose point source and you have to Soffit mount it. Real headache.

Also I will reiterate that the more you treat your room for accuracy the more SPL you will need to compensate for loss of absorbed energy.

Everything does depend on the size of your listening triangle. If it puts you more than 10ft away from either monitor then M2 has a definite edge. In 20x40 room this is very likely unless you use only half the room. Then you could use subs to energize the room and your mids/tweeters won’t suffer with smaller monitors.
 
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MKR

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For large rooms with home theater spl requirements you should avoid all those little toys being mentioned left and right.
Forget small boxes with traditional drivers, active or passive doesn't matter.
They will compress or self-destruct in a large room with good acoustics long before you would want them too.

Whether you call them Kii, Genelec or something else isn't relevant, they're toys in this scenario. The mids and tweets are not up for the job, trust you me. Have ample experience with Kii - both with and without BXT - and can tell you they don't stand up to the task at hand for serious sound quality at loud volumes.

JBL M2 is mentioned, and while those are certainly no toys, but having DIY versions of those I would improve the design by having dedicated bass system for the lows, a second low-passed woofer close to the floor, a better suited mid-woofer and a better compression driver sewn together with phase linear filters- then it becomes cheaper, better and cooler than the originals.

But if I were me I would really look into CBT, line sources, Murphy arrays and huge constant directivity horn setups for this purpose. We're not playing with toys anymore, are we? :D

Either way the best results will only come if the room and speakers are planned as one.
@Absolute Hmmmm … care to elaborate? A reminder I am looking also for accuracy/neutrality, not just output capability. I want it all! (for $30k max of course )
 
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I really wish I could. Haha

I wonder if Harman has an auditioning facility. I bet they do. Genelec is at Natick,

So Harman is in LA. That sounds more tempting this time of year honestly.
@srrxr71 Very tempting! Not to mention I am sure I could find just about every other speaker on my list in LA to audition. Let’s go!
 

DHT 845

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JBLs K2 are great indeed.
 

Doodski

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Go big or go home?

USD~$60K?
Genesis-Quartet-System-Back-2048x1365.jpg

Genesis-Super-Sub.jpg

Genesis-Quartet-2048x1480.jpg
 

Vacceo

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Thanks @Kal Rubinson for bringing this up. Indeed a concern I have when using active speakers. I definitely do not want to have multiple conversions occurring, nothing good can come of that. I was thinking there was maybe a solution that would allow me to avoid this situation when using active, but I fear it is a real issue, keeping me in the passive lane.

A related question … I am a phono lover, how to use phono with active speaker (avoid conversions)? Seems it is not possible. Maybe another reason to stick with passive?
I can give you and answer on the phono questions: there are some phono stages with optical outs. Logically you´ll have a conversion no matter what (analog to digital), but once done, it can be sent to your actives. Of course if you end up using an AVR or similar, many include phono stages or analog outs to plug one.

BTW, for actives, they are not out yet, but Sigberg is working on the Manta speakers. Those will be able to get stupid loud, you may want to take a look at them.
 
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