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Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

Chromatischism

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One of us (and the dictionary) doesn’t know the meaning of non sequitur. Title is about the size of speakers. The area taken by speakers defines how big a speaker is, hence directly related to the thread.
No. The OP learned after posting that the room really matters. The reason why the size of the main speakers is less important now was discussed at length. Your quote:
I rather trust the speaker manufacturer to evaluate the final set-up and buy a full-range speaker, besides two full range speakers take much less space than a bookshelf on stands plus two subs.
Implied that the two are equal and you can just "trust the speaker manufacturer" (whatever that means) instead of buying a sub or two. The second does not follow the first, there is a breakdown in logic, thus, nonsequitur.
That is your assumption. There’s nothing technically stopping a full range speaker produce same amount of sub-bass as a subwoofer. My Salon2 pair will beat many subwoofers in the bottom octave for instance.
In an open field, sure, the sky is the limit. But we have to work within the reality of rooms that create bass soup with extra chunky standing waves. The subs under your speakers, as good as they are, are stuck where they are best working as speakers. My subs can be placed where they work best, giving a better-sounding system as a whole for all content. I'm pretty sure that point has been repeated a few times here. Going from my two sub and standmount speaker system to just towers would be a downgrade in sound quality, and I value that more than the space I need for the subs. And I would end up spending 5x as much money.
A subwoofer is an extra woofer in a separate enclosure. That’s all.
Its main selling point ;). And don't forget the included 1000w amp so I can run my system off of an AVR with all the bells and whistles without extravagant extra gear.
 

sarumbear

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No. The OP learned after posting that the room really matters. The reason why the size of the main speakers is less important now was discussed at length. Your quote:

Implied that the two are equal and you can just "trust the speaker manufacturer" (whatever that means) instead of buying a sub or two. The second does not follow the first, there is a breakdown in logic, thus, nonsequitur.

In an open field, sure, the sky is the limit. But we have to work within the reality of rooms that create bass soup with extra chunky standing waves. The subs under your speakers, as good as they are, are stuck where they are best working as speakers. My subs can be placed where they work best, giving a better-sounding system as a whole for all content. I'm pretty sure that point has been repeated a few times here. Going from my two sub and standmount speaker system to just towers would be a downgrade in sound quality, and I value that more than the space I need for the subs. And I would end up spending 5x as much money.

Its main selling point ;). And don't forget the included 1000w amp so I can run my system off of an AVR with all the bells and whistles without extravagant extra gear.
It is obvious to me that I was not clear enough to explain myself. I don’t know how else I can do better, hence I refrain from replying.
 

Sokel

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They are most definitely used for SPL output at the lower ranges. Think: by increasing SPL down low, you are adding "range" as you call it.
Agreed but the "down low" is 20-40Hz at the most,that's their intended use in the first place.
We now ask them to go as far as 80Hz or more.That's a hack,just to add range they are not intend to add even if we have find ways (capable drivers,amps and design enclosure ).
I have posted the audiocheck test for localization many times,I won't post it again,but every sub I have tested playing more than 50Hz was easy to localize unless the room was really small.
That's my take.
 

Chromatischism

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We now ask them to go as far as 80Hz or more.That's a hack,just to add range they are not intend to add even if we have find ways (capable drivers,amps and design enclosure ).
I have posted the audiocheck test for localization many times,I won't post it again,but every sub I have tested playing more than 50Hz was easy to localize unless the room was really small.
Not if crossed to speakers, and that's how it will be used.
 

sarumbear

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I have posted the audiocheck test for localization many times,I won't post it again,but every sub I have tested playing more than 50Hz was easy to localize unless the room was really small.
That's my take.
I assume you mean for a single sub, i.e. 2.1 not where there are 2 subs, one each next to the LR, main speakers.
 

AndreaT

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www.data-bass.com plenty to look at there, although I think Josh has gotten tired of it.

I design and build my own, so I'm not really interested in commercial units as they're poor value.
I have quickly scrolled through the website. Mostly drivers without cabinets. I might consider a Genelec sub. Any experience of Genelec SW among the members of this forum?
 

sarumbear

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Not if crossed to speakers, and that's how it will be used.
Never used a crossover frequency as low as 50Hz but I certainly can locate a sub crossed at 80Hz when it is further than around 3m away from the main speakers using test tones. That is what one should expect as wave length at 80Hz is 4m and half wave length, which is pretty high in amplitude, is only 2m.
 

sarumbear

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Yes,single sub playing alone.
Which should never be the case unless it is connected to the LFE channel directly. A single sub with bass management is a cost cutting exercise. It is a sub-par solution.
 

Sokel

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Which should never be the case unless it is connected to the LFE channel directly. A single sub with bass management is a cost cutting exercise. It is a sub-par solution.
The thing was to see how high should it go to localize it outside the normal test.
During the normal tests,even integrated with electronic xover with both HP and LP filters and a gazzillion of settings the moment I was crossing the 50Hz line everything was falling apart.
 

Sokel

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(to be fair)
I only did these tests because I got a sub that I didn't even have to pay for (came with a car,as gift,must be dirt cheap and it was horrible.
Following this I borrowed my friends really expensive sub (we live really close) to repeat.Not much of a difference except it didn't look like it would explode.
My mains have 31Hz F3 if it matters.

Edit: that's me before correction,EQ,etc:

curve.PNG
 

Chrispy

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Your reply seems slightly arrogant. I should “delve into” as much as I wish to. I asked you about your subwoofers of choice, after describing my modest ones, and I get a pseudo-lecture about my allegedly poor choice. I indicated the advantages of RELs (easy integration by wiring in series to the existing speakers, a very useful option as my DACs do not have a SW out, reliability, as my modest Strata III played for 23+ years), I succinctly described why they seem satisfactory (playing the opening double bass/organ of “Sonnengaufgang” as I remember it from Symphony Hall or close enough). You did not engage in a meaningful discussion and did not offer useful information. I do not find the interaction either useful or pleasant. Yes, there is so much I must still learn. No, I am not a newbie in Music listening.
Your reply seems light on sub integration knowledge....the Rel may use a high level input that isn't the same as in series either. Your 2ch gear simply seems limited for sub integration.

ps Have built my own subs for a while.
 

Yuhasz01

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Your reply seems light on sub integration knowledge....the Rel may use a high level input that isn't the same as in series either. Your 2ch gear simply seems limited for sub integration.

ps Have built my own subs for a while.
If you build your own, and not an engineer, your diy experience is of little help or value to others.
 

rccarguy

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As a kid I always dreamed about the huge towers with a big woofer or even several bass drivers.
But I'm wondering now that subs are priced OK for 10-15 inch and it's possible to add one to each channel, are all the big speakers obsolete?
So a small speaker /monitor combined with a sub basically have the same woofer power as the big guys for much less €€€
What am I missing here?

Bigger speakers are more efficient (sensivity)
Higher output
Look manly
Work fine in stereo
Able to use lower crossover

Towers do have negatives like bigger, more expensive, require more bracing, possible interactions between drivers, could be too big for the room, can't be used elseware in other compact systems ie garage or bedroom like bookshelf or standmounts can.
 

bloomdido

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Some companies/people get this all wrong and pair 4" speakers with a sub crossed at 120-150 Hz. That is not going to be a recipe for the best sound. The best you can do there is to put the sub literally next to the center channel (if you have one), where it will be less noticeable. Even though that does tend to be a good location, it means such a setup can't experiment with other sub locations to find what works best.
First, not everyone is very much interested in precise localization of the sounds. We rarely have pure 150 Hz sounds, usually they have some harmonics which play much greater role in localization of sounds. So no need to put single sub exactly at the center. Also, one can use 2 subwoofers crossed over at 150 Hz each fed from just one channel of stereo pair.
 

3125b

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Depends on what you call "big speakers".
Even big floorstanders won't be able to match the LF output of a modern DSP-sub. But then again, most of those subs are big speakers in their own right, even my somewhat modest 12" Monoprice has a volume of 148l and weighs 45kg. Few speakers will do 105dB @20Hz (2m RMS), especially not with that linearity.
 

Chromatischism

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First, not everyone is very much interested in precise localization of the sounds. We rarely have pure 150 Hz sounds, usually they have some harmonics which play much greater role in localization of sounds. So no need to put single sub exactly at the center. Also, one can use 2 subwoofers crossed over at 150 Hz each fed from just one channel of stereo pair.
Localization also means content that shouldn't be played by subs, being played by your subs. For example the bottom end of the human vocal range or instruments in the upper bass and lower midrange area. It doesn't sound the best when that happens :). It tends to dirty the sound. This isn't theory, it's experience for me. Again, the crossover can be a little higher if the subs are next to the speaker or in the middle of the front wall, but there's a clear limit.
 

sarumbear

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I see that in order for a 12” driver to produce 105dB at 20Hz at 2m requires around 70mm Xmax. It’s is incredible that your sub achieves such an excursion, almost half the driver diameter (6 inches) peak to peak!

 
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