B&W 804 D4 review and measurements by Stereophile

[thewas]

The NS10, BW, ATC or Ditton, Urei, JBL in the past have dismounted this myth.

Non neutral monitors actually were the reason of http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html but thankfully nowadays more and more studios have understood this big deficit of the audio world (similarly no video mixing would be performed with a screen in the colourful showroom mode) and move to neutral monitors. By the way most ATC and later JBL monitors were already quite neutral.

 

[Frgirard]

Non neutral monitors actually were the reason of http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html but thankfully nowadays more and more studios have understood this big deficit of the audio world (similarly no video mixing would be performed with a screen in the colourful showroom mode) and move to neutral monitors. By the way most ATC and later JBL monitors were already quite neutral.

What is the knowledge of the studio world for Olive?
The White album is a great recording. Olive should be treated his circle of confusion.
A kh420 don't have the sound of a genelec s360 and the sound of an atc 50.
Where are the neutrality?
You comparaison between a screen and a speaker is weird.

 

[thewas]

The White album is a great recording.

You misunderstand the causality, some experienced mixing and mastering engineers managed to make some good sounding albums despite the poor monitors they used, it is much more easy and expedient though to achieve that with neutral monitors.

A kh420 don't have the sound of a genelec s360 and the sound of an atc 50.
Where are the neutrality?

A KH420 sounds not that different to a 8361 and all those sound much more similar to each other than the mess (luckily of the past) like NS10 and Ureis, you can read a chapter about them in Toole's book.

You comparaison between a screen and a speaker is weird.

It isn't, photo and video processing at pro level is done in an light and colour calibrated environment, only in the audio world the importance of such isn't still understood by everyone.

 

[dasdoing]

I might be wrong but afaik the reason near-field monitors started to beeing used is that the main monitors/rooms weren't realy chosen by the engineers. they weren't the "mains", before this, but the only monitor. So engeniers brought their own stuff to the room and put it on the console. They even "EQed" those nearfields with crazy sounding solutions like puting paper in front of the tweeters: http://www.bobhodas.com/examining-the-yamaha-ns-10m.php

 

[dasdoing]

Also the process of chosing the monitoring equipment included trail and error. they woud check how well their mixes "translate" to other environments.
they also heavily rely on reference recordings

 

[d3l]

I might be wrong but afaik the reason near-field monitors started to beeing used is that the main monitors/rooms weren't realy chosen by the engineers. they weren't the "mains", before this, but the only monitor. So engeniers brought their own stuff to the room and put it on the console. They even "EQed" those nearfields with crazy sounding solutions like puting paper in front of the tweeters: http://www.bobhodas.com/examining-the-yamaha-ns-10m.php

I have pair of NS10's with custom tissue paper holders on top of the tweeters. Don't use them personally but they are getting used regularly in our control room. NS10's are extremely mediocre speakers but when you get your balances right with them, the translation is very universal. Eg. if the mix sounds right on them, it will probably do so on almost anything. Tissue paper 'hack' was mostly used to ease the treble during longer sessions as its quite fatiguing to ones ears.

 

[d3l]

I would really like to hear your opinion when you audition a neutral and flat speaker like a KEF Blade/2 meta.

Thanks for the tip. There seems to be a pair in one semi local shop. I will try to have a listen and post my impressions. I'm doing this little project now where I'm trying to get to listen to some new speakers to get an idea what is happening in hi-fi side. It's been like 15 years since I've actually put any effort into trying stuff outside the studio monitors.

 

[fpitas]

I have pair of NS10's with custom tissue paper holders on top of the tweeters. Don't use them personally but they are getting used regularly in our control room. NS10's are extremely mediocre speakers but when you get your balances right with them, the translation is very universal. Eg. if the mix sounds right on them, it will probably do so on almost anything. Tissue paper 'hack' was mostly used to ease the treble during longer sessions as its quite fatiguing to ones ears.

Thank you for posting that. The sonic needs of a mixing engineer are unique. I don't think a lot of people realize that.

 

[Frgirard]

Thank you for posting that. The sonic needs of a mixing engineer are unique. I don't think a lot of people realize that.

Mixing engineer? Mixing operator or mixing guy or mixing women but engineer... I'm POTUS

 

[fpitas]

Mixing engineer? Mixing operator or mixing guy or mixing women but engineer... I'm POTUS

And you like mixing it up

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Mixing engineer? Mixing operator or mixing guy or mixing women but engineer... I'm POTUS

Thats a new type of engineer

 

[d3l]

Mixing engineer? Mixing operator or mixing guy or mixing women but engineer... I'm POTUS

What

 

[Ageve]

The needs of neutral or flat speakers for produce, work a track is a myth.

You can produce with bad monitors, but why would you? The result would be less than optimal. Sometimes it can be corrected during mastering (with other monitors).

Comparisons with video production are on point. Nobody would use a display with a TN panel when color grading a Hollywood production. It would be considered insane to be honest. The big difference with video is that there are standards to follow. A video monitor has to be accurate. Otherwise it's considered useless.

B&W speakers used to be accurate. All the Matrix series were good, and also the first 800 Nautilus series, but then it started going downhill.

Mixing engineer? Mixing operator or mixing guy or mixing women but engineer... I'm POTUS

Mixing engineer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mixing Engineer

Studio mixing is the process of artfully assembling the various parts of a multitrack recording into a standard stereo track. While most recording engineers are capable of producing a basic mix, studio mixing engineers make this task into their own art form, using a mix of technical and musical...

www.berklee.edu

 

[caught gesture]

You can produce with bad monitors, but why would you? The result would be less than optimal. Sometimes it can be corrected during mastering (with other monitors).

Comparisons with video production are on point. Nobody would use a display with a TN panel when color grading a Hollywood production. It would be considered insane to be honest. The big difference with video is that there are standards to follow. A video monitor has to be accurate. Otherwise it's considered useless.

B&W speakers used to be accurate. All the Matrix series were good, and also the first 800 Nautilus series, but then it started going downhill.

Mixing engineer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mixing Engineer

Studio mixing is the process of artfully assembling the various parts of a multitrack recording into a standard stereo track. While most recording engineers are capable of producing a basic mix, studio mixing engineers make this task into their own art form, using a mix of technical and musical...

www.berklee.edu

The video monitor standard is much easier to control and implement than a speaker. A speaker has to integrate in a room and I think this is where it becomes much more difficult to set a standard. The standard would have to include the speaker and the room which presents an exponential increase of variables to be taken into consideration.

 

[Newman]

The video monitor standard is much easier to control and implement than a speaker. A speaker has to integrate in a room and I think this is where it becomes much more difficult to set a standard. The standard would have to include the speaker and the room which presents an exponential increase of variables to be taken into consideration.

That has all been done. The room has been specified in a Standard (IEC 60268-13) and its characteristics are much like a good home listening room. The Circle need not be as Confused as many a studio are making it.

Although 60268-13 was developed to aid speaker designers in developing speakers, its applicability in final mastering rooms that are used to get a desired balance that has a decent chance of translating to the consumer, is obvious.

Control rooms are a different problem. They have always been too variable, and the reason recording engineers went to small speakers was so they could put them up close and minimise the room sound contribution, given that their main objective was not final tonal balance but hearing forensically into exactly what was coming in on each mic feed channel.

And then there is mixing: yet another topic with its own technical challenges, and a strong artistic musical element.

Cheers

 

[caught gesture]

That has all been done. The room has been specified in a Standard (IEC 60268-13) and its characteristics are much like a good home listening room. The Circle need not be as Confused as many a studio are making it.

Although 60268-13 was developed to aid speaker designers in developing speakers, its applicability in final mastering rooms that are used to get a desired balance that has a decent chance of translating to the consumer, is obvious.

Control rooms are a different problem. They have always been too variable, and the reason recording engineers went to small speakers was so they could put them up close and minimise the room sound contribution, given that their main objective was not final tonal balance but hearing forensically into exactly what was coming in on each mic feed channel.

And then there is mixing: yet another topic with its own technical challenges, and a strong artistic musical element.

Cheers

It’s a shame that the information for IEC 60268-13 is behind a paywall. I’d be very interested to read it.

On further reading, there do seem to be a variety of standards. Currently two of the five main standards have taken root not only in research environments, but also in the business community, namely the EBU 3276 and the ITU-R BS 1116-1. This is probably due to the fact, that these two recommendations, compared to others, like AES, IEC or N 12-A, give clear and quite strict conditions and instructions on how the room and its sound field should look like. I’m quoting from this research paper.

https://www2.spsc.tugraz.at/www-archive/downloads/PA_Sereinig_A_Standardized_Listening_Room.pdf

 

[YSC]

The needs of neutral or flat speakers for produce, work a track is a myth.
The needs to learn the speakers is essential.
The NS10, BW, ATC or Ditton, Urei, JBL in the past have dismounted this myth.

actually this is blurring the focus.

Of course, quite a lot of job don't need the precise tool, you can make furniture with non-calibrated rulers, can take photos will manual focus lens produced in the WW2 era and film, do wonderful construction designs using paper and druler with manual calculation, even early day aircraft and spaceship designs don't have all the fancy computer simulation and modeling aids.

It CAN be done with suboptimal or even poor tools, but that in turn required the operator to be more skillful, producing a tad worse product than with the best equipment and the said expert need 120% focus with all his/her skills to make it work the way they want as in their target. But then a better tool will allow more fredom/ less focus on doing all those calibration/estimation within your brain

 

[Frgirard]

actually this is blurring the focus.

Of course, quite a lot of job don't need the precise tool, you can make furniture with non-calibrated rulers, can take photos will manual focus lens produced in the WW2 era and film, do wonderful construction designs using paper and druler with manual calculation, even early day aircraft and spaceship designs don't have all the fancy computer simulation and modeling aids.

It CAN be done with suboptimal or even poor tools, but that in turn required the operator to be more skillful, producing a tad worse product than with the best equipment and the said expert need 120% focus with all his/her skills to make it work the way they want as in their target. But then a better tool will allow more fredom/ less focus on doing all those calibration/estimation within your brain

A neutral speaker of the brand A must be sound a neutral speaker of the brand B.
Do you know two brands with the same sound?
Compare the audio business"the subjective Kingdom" with the business based on calculations is weird.

My knowledge of this business do not see the word Skill.

 

[dasdoing]

NS10's are extremely mediocre speakers but when you get your balances right with them, the translation is very universal. Eg. if the mix sounds right on them, it will probably do so on almost anything.

don't forget they are from the 80ies. they were probably on the flatter side compared to what was available. the lack of bass was actually desired, as that would let you concentrate on the midrange where most of the cleaning up is necessary because almost all elements of a track compete there. they would than just dail in he bass on the mains, or a third pair of speakers. there wasn't too much going on in the deep bass anyways back then. mostly only the kickdrum

 

[dasdoing]

It IS very hard to set a standard for control/mastering rooms. A few days ago Bob Katz posted an translation issue he has on Facebook. he has a mixing room and a mastering room. he spent tons of hours making them sound equally, but still one reveals silabance more than the other (and he doesn't know which is "wrong"). this guy is a mastering guru for many. has decades of experience. studies A LOT. has the best gear, room treatment and professional aid. but he still can't match 2 rooms in his studio. he blames the tweeters btw. the monitors are diferent. not sure he is right