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At what level is noise heard in your system?

Wombat

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I thought the OP question was quite simple. :facepalm:

Why do audiophiles wish to complicate everything?
shrug.gif
 

restorer-john

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The issue with these kinds of test is people dont like taking them and this undermines the effort involved in creating it.

Well, the thread was created two years ago and only resurrected today and the links are long dead. Can't blame people for not participating now...
 

Krunok

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The issue with these kinds of test is people dont like taking them and this undermines the effort involved in creating it.

Its a shame as gathering data like this could be brilliant. Iv noticed @Blumlein 88 has made several similar efforts with uptake limited.

Downer and eventually you kinda think why bother. Still maybe when this site a little more mature we can put something 'official ' up and really try to drive participation.

It was the same with digital room correction - although that's a single best thing you can do to increase SQ, next only to upgrading your loudspeakers, folks are simply not willing to make that effort. ;)

Anyway, I would really like to do this test so hopefully @Blumlein 88 will fix the links.
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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Well, the thread was created two years ago and only resurrected today and the links are long dead. Can't blame people for not participating now...

There is something to what Thomas said. I've never gotten much participation even on large forums with such things. A bit frustrating to read listen for yourself and when given the chance not many care to do so. There is much more participation now on ASR. I may remake them. The reason they aren't there is I was recording a CD for a band, needed the space on my dropbox for dispensing tracks for people to hear the preliminary recorded results. So the files had seen just a couple dozen downloads over a year, hence I removed them. I don't remember why I erased them, but I don't have them.

When things slow down I could put something similar back up or if I end up with some time to kill I might do it sooner.

And it is really simple. Do the filtering I described on white noise, make them at various levels, put sections of 5 seconds silence between 5 seconds noise. Then mix them into whatever music you want to try it with. Or use it alone for the first time and see where it disappears. I have no objections to anyone who wants to make a few up and put here. It would still serve the original purpose of the thread.
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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Okay at least some simple mono files. White noise which was at the labeled levels of minus 30, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 dbFS. After filtering at 6db per octave below 3 khz and 12 db per octave above 5 khz the RMS level is down some 11 db for the entire audible bandwidth. Files are in 16 bit FLAC once you open the attached zip file. TPDF dither was used. You get 2 seconds of noise followed by 2 seconds of silence for 16 seconds.

Remember the point is to play some music at your normal listening level. Then play these files without altering volume. The idea is our hearing is most sensitive at 3-5 khz, so if you determine where you no longer hear the noise you should be even further from hearing it at all other frequencies. Also that most people's listening rooms may not be too far above 0 dbSPL in this frequency range. Most ambient noise is lower in frequency.
 

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Wombat

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You are talking about about noise that shouldn't be audibly apparent for normal listening unless it comes from the source?

That was achievable decades ago.

Source noise also has been capably reduced. Practise does not always match capability.

Audiophile navel-gazing again? :cool:
 

solderdude

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Will try this as well.

About 30 years ago I built this device for educational purposes (mostly my own):
atten.jpg


With it I can attenuate the input signal with one flip of a switch to the set attenuation.
Basically similar to the noise only test.
When playing loud in my listening room I heard nothing when it was set at 70dB attenuation (or more).
It also tought me things about small level differences.
This was back in the days I could hear up to 19kHz and both ears were fine.

What I got from it was that I need not worry about stuff 80dB below peak levels for sure.
For this reason I always get a smile when people worry about stuff in plots below -100dB.
 

trl

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The issue with these kinds of test is people dont like taking them and this undermines the effort involved in creating it.

Its a shame as gathering data like this could be brilliant. Iv noticed @Blumlein 88 has made several similar efforts with uptake limited.

Downer and eventually you kinda think why bother. Still maybe when this site a little more mature we can put something 'official ' up and really try to drive participation.

Then let's get a bit more involved and invite everyone to take these tests. Besides my post above, I've also done some other tests myself, here're my post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...can-we-trust-our-ears.3884/page-3#post-105167. Also, sharing the headphones or speakers if crucial, also sharing the amp and DAC used might be nice too.
 

Krunok

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Okay at least some simple mono files. White noise which was at the labeled levels of minus 30, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 dbFS. After filtering at 6db per octave below 3 khz and 12 db per octave above 5 khz the RMS level is down some 11 db for the entire audible bandwidth. Files are in 16 bit FLAC once you open the attached zip file. TPDF dither was used. You get 2 seconds of noise followed by 2 seconds of silence for 16 seconds.

Remember the point is to play some music at your normal listening level. Then play these files without altering volume. The idea is our hearing is most sensitive at 3-5 khz, so if you determine where you no longer hear the noise you should be even further from hearing it at all other frequencies. Also that most people's listening rooms may not be too far above 0 dbSPL in this frequency range. Most ambient noise is lower in frequency.

Thank you! :)

I can (barely) hear -60 but not -70. And that is on the pretty loud listening level which I still find comfortable for longer listening. Any louder than that and neighbours would consider calling the police if it was after 10PM.

At that level I can hear -70 only at app 1m from the speakers.
 

trl

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Wombat

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Either you can hear noise or not. The issue is where it is coming from. No big deal if you have half-a-clue.
 

Soniclife

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Okay at least some simple mono files. White noise which was at the labeled levels of minus 30, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 dbFS. After filtering at 6db per octave below 3 khz and 12 db per octave above 5 khz the RMS level is down some 11 db for the entire audible bandwidth. Files are in 16 bit FLAC once you open the attached zip file. TPDF dither was used. You get 2 seconds of noise followed by 2 seconds of silence for 16 seconds.

Remember the point is to play some music at your normal listening level. Then play these files without altering volume. The idea is our hearing is most sensitive at 3-5 khz, so if you determine where you no longer hear the noise you should be even further from hearing it at all other frequencies. Also that most people's listening rooms may not be too far above 0 dbSPL in this frequency range. Most ambient noise is lower in frequency.
At a loud listening level, but below where it sometimes goes up to, I can just hear the -80db at the listening position. I'll try again in an evening when it's quieter, it wasn't quiet outside right now. The noise floor in my listening room get's below 0db for some of the spectrum when it's quiet.
 

Soniclife

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When playing loud in my listening room I heard nothing when it was set at 70dB attenuation (or more).
Did your threshold change between when listening loud and flipping the switch, and using the same settings when not having been listening to music?
 

Zilfallion

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I disabled ReplayGain in Foobar for this to set my volume better on some music at a slightly above normal listening level. On a set of HD 6XX. -50dB is moderately audible. -60dB is just barely audible, very very faint. -70dB is completely inaudible to me.
 

solderdude

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Did your threshold change between when listening loud and flipping the switch, and using the same settings when not having been listening to music?

I did these experiments between 30 and 20 years ago.
Listening was usually done in the evening. By that time the ear already becomes more sensitive. My theory is that regardless of the time of day the effective DR for listening to music is around 70dB.
I don't recall listening/testing and keeping it at -70dB then, after an hour or so returning and maybe then able to hear the -70dB.
That's what I think your question is about ?
At night the ear gets more sensitive but the max SPL we can take is lower.
During the day the ears are less sensitive but the background is also pulles 'up'.
A nice demonstration is going to a loud concert and when going home you almost can't hear the traffic any more. This gradually comes back over an hour or so.

Human hearing has a wide dynamic range but the effective 'dynamic' range (when listening to reproduced recordings) is around 70dB in my experience.
 

pkane

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Okay at least some simple mono files. White noise which was at the labeled levels of minus 30, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 dbFS. After filtering at 6db per octave below 3 khz and 12 db per octave above 5 khz the RMS level is down some 11 db for the entire audible bandwidth. Files are in 16 bit FLAC once you open the attached zip file. TPDF dither was used. You get 2 seconds of noise followed by 2 seconds of silence for 16 seconds.

Remember the point is to play some music at your normal listening level. Then play these files without altering volume. The idea is our hearing is most sensitive at 3-5 khz, so if you determine where you no longer hear the noise you should be even further from hearing it at all other frequencies. Also that most people's listening rooms may not be too far above 0 dbSPL in this frequency range. Most ambient noise is lower in frequency.

Earlier this year I decided to determine the lower threshold of my own hearing using headphones. The result was similar to the published equal-loudness curves. This was using an interrupted sine wave, since I wanted to measure each frequency separately, and with HE560 headphones playing uncorrected:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...suring-hrtf-for-headphone-use.3962/post-94588
and
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...suring-hrtf-for-headphone-use.3962/post-94620
 
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Soniclife

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I don't recall listening/testing and keeping it at -70dB then, after an hour or so returning and maybe then able to hear the -70dB.
That's what I think your question is about ?
Yes, that's what I was asking, for the following reason....
A nice demonstration is going to a loud concert and when going home you almost can't hear the traffic any more. This gradually comes back over an hour or so.


Human hearing has a wide dynamic range but the effective 'dynamic' range (when listening to reproduced recordings) is around 70dB in my experience.
My limited tests agree with that, interestingly similar to what vinyl is capable of, by luck or design.
 

PierreV

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I also end up at around -70dB. Doesn't habituation play a role in this? If I can trust my umik-1 my environment noise floor seems to generally be in that range (a bit below depending on the room I am in). Wondering what the result would be if I could lock myself into a much quieter environment for a few hours before trying again. May try with earplugs.
 

Thomas savage

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Ok, I follow a free podcast for boxing . It’s similar to here in that you can do the Patreon thing ( like I do) but the guy who provides it asked for a non financial contribution at the start of every podcast . This varies but generally it’s about reviewing and sharing , I suggest we all have a chat behind the scenes and come up with a similar ‘ask’. If you enjoy the forum you can ‘pay’ by participating in ‘testing’ .

No ones obligated but maybe we can get organised and really drive participation and in doing so gather meaningful data on a range of things.

@Blumlein 88 if you and a few others are interested in doing this let me know . It needs a coordinated effort imo , be driven by our brand and given a dedicated place.

Then we can achieve something, else we will continue the status quo Dennis knows all to well.
 

garbulky

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Nice! I will test when I get home. So far it looks like most have serious trouble hearing below -60 db and that's from "silence". With music playing, I imagine that's completely inaudible even at -60 db. This is why I don't worry too much about DAC's with spurious tones at -80 db.
Whatever is affecting sound quality has to be within the audible range.
 
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