Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

[pierre]

… and for this weight it only goes down to 23 Hz at -6 dB! What is this… Would love to see you test an SVS ported sub like PB 2000 pro instead (the ones I have). Thank you.

it is not a subwoofer … which is why it doesn’t try to get low. Subs are 7380A and 7382a. The value is in using the 2 woofers in different ways to produce different radiation patterns (as flat as possible, minimise side reflections, etc).

We have a dedicated thread for the W371A (more than one in facts).

 

[Vovgan]

it is not a subwoofer … which is why it doesn’t try to get low. Subs are 7380A and 7382a. The value is in using the 2 woofers in different ways to produce different radiation patterns (as flat as possible, minimise side reflections, etc).

I used to have two RELs S510 which also had 2 woofers each, maybe they were also trying to achieve the same thing. Then changed them to SVSs and what a difference did it make! DSP’ed them to my room and could not be happier. Finally some good sub bass With no detriment to the rest of the spectrum whatsoever.

 

[amirm]

I used to have two RELs S510 which also had 2 woofers each, maybe they were also trying to achieve the same thing.

Usually that is done to reduce vibrations using opposing woofers. Beamforming using the dual drivers requires DSP which they lack.

 

[Tangband]

If that were the case you wouldn’t be able to hear below 20 Hz with headphones capable of such.
Not true.

In a real room you have dips and peaks . My room made of concrete has its biggest room resonance peak at 31 Hz , + 25 dB .
Below that peak, below 28 Hz its a steep dip - 30 dB. With two big closed box DIY subs I can still hear the subs pressurising the room below that frequency , but its not a plesuring experience. Nearfield measurements ( outside ) of the subs shows -3 dB at 18 Hz . At listeningposition in my room the - 3 dB is at 29 Hz .

In bigger rooms, like more than 8*6 meters you have the last room resonance ( Wall to Wall ) peak at a lower frequency than 31 Hz and the deep bass will sound much better .

A headphone can play deep bass because its close to the ears and dont have those grotesk peaks ( + 20 dB or more) because of the room resonances .

 

[FrantzM]

In a real room you have dips and peaks . My room made of concrete has its biggest room resonance peak at 31 Hz , + 25 dB .
Below that peak, below 28 Hz its a steep dip - 30 dB. With two big closed box DIY subs I can still hear the subs pressurising the room below that frequency , but its not a plesuring experience. Nearfield measurements ( outside ) of the subs shows -3 dB at 18 Hz . At listeningposition in my room the - 3 dB is at 29 Hz .

In bigger rooms, like more than 8*6 meters you have the last room resonance ( Wall to Wall ) peak at a lower frequency than 31 Hz and the deep bass will sound much better .

A headphone can play deep bass because its close to the ears and dont have those grotesk peaks ( + 20 dB or more) because of the room resonances .

The subject is definitely off-topics. Your points deserve a response in a different thread. I will open a thread on the subject and other will chime. I believe however that you are wrong: Very low bass( 30 Hz can be heard, and enjoyed in room as as small rooms as <15 square meters... True, small rooms response can be uneven, when raw, but there are many ways to mitigate and obtain a smooth, linear response in the low bass. One of these, is through the use of multiple subwoofers. Thread will come up later.

Peace.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I wonder how much worst is the 1032C compared to S360
Basically they're both 10 inch 2-way
But obviously 1032 is much older design

 

[kipman725]

The most expensive part of any speaker(honestly this applies to all products) is the engineering and quality of assembly, not the parts. If you base your purchases on parts value you're usually going to buy things with poor engineering, assembly, quality control or all 3. Which are the worst parts to skimp on, IMO. There's no free lunch.

I design speakers mostly for PA use so I'm very focused on parts cost. I would disagree and would attribute most of the difference in price to production in Finland, Company overhead and difference in accepted margin for different markets (studio vs pro). I'm not trying the arguee that you should go out and buy a PA speaker just that you are getting much more 'stuff' for your money.

 

[Frank Dernie]

… and for this weight it only goes down to 23 Hz at -6 dB! What is this… Where is the fun for the movies? Would love to see you test an SVS ported sub like PB 2000 pro instead (the ones I have). Thank you.

Who cares about movies with a unique product like the W371?
There are masses of subwoofers and several people testing them. A full system using the W371 have a sub too.
The W371 is a unique product, not a subwoofer, and is about the only thing out there today I would be genuinely fascinated to see measured.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I used to have two RELs S510 which also had 2 woofers each, maybe they were also trying to achieve the same thing

No, very much not.
Read the Genelec data, it is readily available and interesting and shows what the unique product is designed to be capable of.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I wonder how much worst is the 1032C compared to S360
Basically they're both 10 inch 2-way
But obviously 1032 is much older design

Two main differences.

1. Genelec claims the S360 is 4 dB louder than the 1032C. 10^(4/10) = 2.5x. The S360 is capable of 2.5x the on-axis acoustic power output of the 1032C.

2. The 1032C has one of those first-gen wave guides which is only moderately effective. There is a 2.5 dB boost between 1.0 and 1.8 kHz and then a cut back to flat by 2 kHz on-axis. This is to reflect that the waveguide isn't deep and narrow enough to actually match the tweeter directivity with a 10" woofer at the x-over frequency. The S360 doesn't have this. The 1032C should sound best about 20 degrees of-axis (not toed in).

 

[TurtlePaul]

I design speakers mostly for PA use so I'm very focused on parts cost. I would disagree and would attribute most of the difference in price to production in Finland, Company overhead and difference in accepted margin for different markets (studio vs pro). I'm not trying the arguee that you should go out and buy a PA speaker just that you are getting much more 'stuff' for your money.

What if the 'stuff' you want to buy is on-axis and off-axis frequency response linearity and low distortion?

While Genelec doesn't always use exotic materials and construction methods, they certainly do spend a lot of time testing to get better results and do offer products which spend the money where it delivers results.

Do you have a spin for your PA designs? Distortion measurements? I bet you don't even bother.

 

[Sancus]

I design speakers mostly for PA use so I'm very focused on parts cost. I would disagree and would attribute most of the difference in price to production in Finland, Company overhead and difference in accepted margin for different markets (studio vs pro). I'm not trying the arguee that you should go out and buy a PA speaker just that you are getting much more 'stuff' for your money.

I don't want stuff though, stuff doesn't help me. I want a perfect speaker where every single unit is assembled to strict tolerances, measured off the line and perfectly matched to every other speaker of that model they make, with a ton of R&D backing some of the best designs in the industry(certainly the best coaxial design).

High parts values don't produce good sound. Not unless they are backed with proper engineering, measurement, and reliable manufacturing and assembly processes. Also while I am sure that Genelec could make similar speakers in China.... I think it would be enormously difficult for them to maintain their reputation for quality and reliability while doing so. And honestly I'm happy to pay an extra thousand bucks or two for them to make them in a country where the workers are well-compensated and where they have built a sustainable business that will still be able to service my speakers 20 or 30 years from now.

You don't get any of that from parts value.

 

[changer]

Thank you @amirm to respond to my request to test this speaker, this data is nice to see. I am impressed how they kept the port resonance controlled. And while from their data of off-axis curves, I was expecting more tilt to the PIR in high frequencies—what gave me some headache as the pattern was not narrowing much—now I know it was me unable to see through their presentation, properly. It is quite typical: constant directivity, lots of HF energy.

Did you take more notes from listening? I wonder how you did perceive clarity and details. And was any sort of EQ used? Tyvm

 

[Digby]

And honestly I'm happy to pay an extra thousand bucks or two for them to make them in a country where the workers are well-compensated and where they have built a sustainable business that will still be able to service my speakers 20 or 30 years from now.

Presuming they are still going in 20 or 30 years, it may be likely but it isn't a given, and how easy are Class D amps to service by anyone save the manufacturer?

I think kipman725 makes a fair point, there is less value for money in the higher end studio speakers. Some of this can be accounted for - fewer units sold, larger size (compared to their smaller monitors), higher tolerances, but they are still expensive compared to PA speakers. He is right that some of the difference is the amount the buyer expects to pay for any given speaker.

Genelec have a certain image of prestige to maintain. That requires having prices that, if anything, err towards higher rather than lower.

If you have the room, a pair of Hi-Fi and PA speakers could be purchased for the same price, or less than a pair of S360. Performance by either set of speakers wouldn't match the S360, but might get most of the way there and even best it in some aspects.

I'd still love to hear the S360. I think it may be more to my tastes than the Genelec coaxials. I imagine the character of the two speakers types is rather different and people will tend to prefer one or the other.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Genelec have a certain image of prestige to maintain. That requires having prices that, if anything, err towards higher rather than lower.

I think this is less of a problem than the HiFi industry where quality has been claimed to be directly linked to price for decades and speakers, in general, are absurdly over priced.
These are astoundingly inexpensive compared to a fashionable pair of hifi speakers and an equally fashionable hifi amp to drive them.
Sadly I don't like the look of most monitor speakers and have poor experience of the longevity of anything digital so won't be getting any, however good they are, personally.

 

[GWolfman]

I'm surprised the sharp top edges don't create diffraction/directivity errors/distortion.

 

[F1308]

Maybe I missed, or didn't get it?
What does this what you are now saying have anything to do with speakers for home HiFi use? Temperature differences and sound? For PA heat regarding elememt/ drivers MAY be a problem. But those PA people adjust things based on needs, but sometimes it can go wrong. But home HiFi and heat (regarding speakers) ?

The formulation is there.
Low bass is affected as you see every 2 degrees Celsius once related to those 5 cents.
You may notice it if you have been granted with that 5 cents "detection capability", or not and you will need more range, say 7 cents, or 10...but it is there.
As I said, I noticed my system having more "body" in winter than in summer, where temperatures in a non conditioned huge room (720 m3, 9m hight, 80m2 surface) varies 12-32 Celsius.

 

[F1308]

My bass response in my room dies below about 28 Hz because of the dimensions of the room . My lowest room resonanse is about 31 Hz, were I have a big peak. Below 28 Hz I can anyway feel the DIY subwoofers doing some sound pressure in the room.

But the fact is that if the room is to small , it might be a waste of money to get subwoofers flat to 20 Hz ,- so good point.
In a room smaller than about 6*4 meters its probably overkill with subwoofers to 8361.

Correct...I see your room could be at 21C and around 6.14 m in length...front of loudspeakers to wall...or 25C and 6.18m...

Yes, more temperature, push them back !

Hear how funny it is considered the fact of some people placing a Buchardt A700 (17Hz bottom) in a 3x3 rooon.

Start from 44:00, please...

Podcast: Inside the Buchardt A700 with Mads Buchardt | Darko.Audio

We dive deeper into the Danish company's active floorstander, its driver configuration, master tunings, room correction, measurements, DSP, external pre-amplifiers, WISA and more.

darko.audio

 

[F1308]

If that were the case you wouldn’t be able to hear below 20 Hz with headphones capable of such.
Not true.

Headphones are considered a different environment.

It goes without saying that I myself made the same questions when first knew about room size and low bass.

Here is the answer I got from a very kind loudspeaker maker...

The smaller the room, the less help they will give to the speakers, and therefore it becomes almost impossible for speakers to produce the very low frequencies, inside these small rooms. A 17Hz soundwave is a bit more than 20 meters long, and when you try to play that in a room that is 3 meters long, the output is just going to be extremely low. As a general rule of thump, you need a room with half the length of the soundwave you want to produce, to get a decent output, at this frequency. That does not mean that you won't get any 20hz output in a 3x3m room, it will just be very low, and you really won't get much out of the speakers' ability to produce sound in this frequency range. And in a small room, you gain almost nothing by getting the A700 over the A500, the extra 7hz of depth you get from the A700, will most likely not be heard in that room.
So it is all related to the room size and room acoustics, not the distance to the speakers, as you refer to with the near field setup. Headphones are also completely different, as they are not limited by the room, and you can get deep bass here.
Your 5000 euro subwoofer offering 13-80 Hz can bring a lot extra in a 3x3 room, but it will be mostly from the 35-40Hz range and up. There will still be output, it will just fall off drastically, when you get below this range, in small rooms.

 

[Tangband]

Headphones are considered a different environment.

True.
(In the Darko podcast, at 46 minutes the constructor of Buchardt a700 says that a really small room 3*3 meters never gonna be able to play any bass at low frequencies . He would never recommend an a700 to a customer who dont have a much bigger room. )

To be on topic again : So , the logic of this will be - the s360 dont really need subwoofers in a room smaller than about 5*4 meters .