The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[Curvature]

The impedance graph shows that there is now too much stuffing, if these are being kept and not returned it would be advisable to experiment some more.

View attachment 214926

Could you please expand?

 

[MAB]

Thanks for the accurate point.
This is why I like ASR even though I'm not an English speaker.

ASR members are new to this post today.

Therefore, I fully understand that you may feel uncomfortable with the content that is somewhat critical and offensive towards a particular person.

But I want you to know that it has been a very long and painful process for 'Us'.

Based on the results alone, it may seem like a very simple process, but in reality it is not.

We've been trying to keep in touch with Alan through the actual speaker's owner and a member who's in the process of purchasing it, which includes all the key points posted in this post.

Contrary to his openness to discussing together, Alan repeatedly emphasized the driver's flaws and his know-how to overcome them, avoiding most problems.

Alan is the person who finished the mail with the 15% promotion of our March audio.


I also has a personal and ethical responsibility for disclosing some of his conversations with Alan.

However, I posted this content with at least the permission of the person in the mail, and since the content of the mail contains a lot of personal inquiries from buyers, including paint finish issues that have nothing to do with the performance of the speaker, it is currently impossible to disclose the full text of the mail.

I imagine it was painful. Manufacturers sell things to customers, and they are accountable for the sale and the support of the product. The emails are support, and you have presented them fairly (as far as I can tell). Yes, there is some emotion in your statements, but I think you did a great job here of peeling the onion.

 

[Tks]

He was given multiple warnings due to his strong efforts to monetize his measurements through sponsorships, commissioned Amazon links, etc.. This came to a head in a public thread where he became outraged and said would quit (see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ience-review-channel-a-plug.21490/post-834212). I still did not ban him for months despite the many unkind things he said about me. Didn't do it to be magnanimous. Did it because I know how much we all appreciate the data he provides. If he just knew how to do that without causing friction with our mission of not being tied commercially, he would be here like the rest of you.

None of this has anything to do with being good or bad person. No forum would let me go and posts links to our forum if we had advertising/sponsorships in it. They would immediately ban me as a spammer. We put up with this for good number of months and eventually had to make the call and have a hard break. That's it guys. Our decision is final and we want to get on with our lives. You all are welcome to continue to post his videos, his measurements, etc. And you can interact with him in his youtube comments or otherwise.

If I could just say something and end off with one final question. Since you say you know how some folks appreciate data he provides (and I'm sure somewhere deep down you perhaps do yourself in virtue of both folks valuing measurements as a concept). You obviously then know we users hate seeing cool folks such as yourselves quibble over stuff like this especially when both sides claim they're willing to extend a hand in good faith (true or not is irrelevant currently). So I ask, is there ANY possible way, some sort of reconciliation is possible, not just for the sake of viewers, but for the sake of audio communities in general, and also for history's sake so outsiders don't get the self-forming images in their head that is fortified by objective review naysayers? Or am I just WAYYY off base here in asking this, and it's simply the matter of fact that you two have utterly irreconcilable value differences?

I'm not asking for public show of hugging it out, but perhaps that private phone call where you guys could (seperate from all community stakes and such) talk it out between one another.

I honestly think there's room for both players to see common ground in this situation. And I would wager many folks here would also side with me on that front with respect to this hope.

And at the end of it all, how fucking cool would it be from both sides, and from fans of both reviewers, to see some sort of happier end to this ordeal? Especially considering this whole thread mostly has it's guns aimed at March Audio rather than either of you honestly.

 

[098765]

Nuyes, I was reading all your findings with utmost interest thinking this was a cheap loudspeaker.

Then I found this...

SOINTUVA WG SPEAKER (PAIR)
SOINTUVA-WG-PAIR
AUD $5,454.54

...and all the things they say and promise...

Sointuva WG Speaker - March Audio

The Sointuva WG is a bookshelf speaker featuring state of the art drivers from Purifi and SB Acoustics and beautiful solid wood cabinets. Class leading technical and subjective audio performance. Please note: As this product is custom manufactured to your aesthetic specification shipping lead...

www.marchaudio.com

Confronting the facts, it turns anything promised or advertised is simply unbelievable, illusion turns a disaster, confidence is gone.

Then I went thinking there are indeed too many people around this business going the wrong way thinking easy money is easy to grab without realising that what they will finally achieve is simply that nearly nobody go spending more than just 19,99 $ in a pair of earphones and that is it.

I thought price is fair considering the real wood enclosure, purifi driver and PR, sb beryllium tweeter with aluminium WG etc. But the level of response from March Audio was not acceptable... It was unlike what March Audio promised.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

Please stop making sense with distortion and meaningless loudspeaker measurements, by far the weakest part and mostly pseudo science infected of ASR...

So... You like hearing those little tweety-birds in your speakers? I sure as hell don't. By far one of my biggest pet-peeves. And they will show up in the measurement if done properly. How else can you convey that? Sound clip on YouTube?

 

[restorer-john]

Oh my, what a trainwreck.

From what I can see, the 4mm binding posts are securely bolted to a plate and that plate is affixed to the cabinet. I see no problem with that. Also, using a torch to show an 'air leak' is not valid. They are solid, not a hollow tube.* One terminal is red, one white and the light shining through will show differently. You can see the plate has been sealed to the cabinet in the original shot, showing a white silicone-like substance. There is also some deformation (raised) in the centre of the plate. Two additional screws would solve that.

* the reviewer has stated they are hollow. My mistake.

The leaks around the tweeter to wave guide assembly should be addressed and seals should be sent to any customers who had previously purchased the WG Sointuvas.

The internal cable dress should also be addressed, but should also be put in perspective. Most high end speakers I have seen and worked on over the decades have at most a few stapled down cables here and there and most have free floating internal cables. Sure, you get the odd vibration and cable touching the back of a driver causing trouble, but it's hardly as bad as the reviewer is making out. Ironically, it's the cheapest speakers these days that have the carefully foam wrapped and secured cables. March will learn from that and implement the fix probably immediately.

I think the lesson here is a classic case of diverting blame going horribly wrong. I also see the reviewer as making a number of mountains out of molehills. A little balance seems to be in order. When a number of reviewers start taking pot shots at each other from their platforms all over this March Audio speaker and its measurements, you really have to ask whether they should have left it alone in the first place. Trouble just seems to follow some people.

Remember this post?

None of this however, would stop me buying a pair of Sointuvas if I was in the market for such a speaker.

Last time I checked, we are all adults. HiFi is just an appliance to most people- they turn it on and off and really don't think much more about it. Maybe the vast majority have got it right and us 'audiophiles' are the silly ones?

 

[rofo]

Yeah, but poor speaker performance never killed anybody?

 

[Newman]

As one who ordered Sointuva WG recently,
I believe Alan March can handle this and improve his own product to work as it designed.

This report would be huge support for do that. I hope this kind of review help Alan, Amir, Erin and whole audio community together and be their great resources.

Except that would require a 100% turnaround in the attitudes that Alan has demonstrated here in response to issues anybody wanted to raise with any of his speakers.

Not impossible, but not backed by prior experience, i.e. the evidence.

 

[PeteL]

No communication with a manufacturer from whom you bought a product is "private" information unless specifically agreed to. I have a number of times posted my frustrated chats with cable companies and such here. Nothing unethical about that. Companies need to know that anything they write in this context can be public information. Otherwise, we would be losing the side of the consumer. Members should be able to voice their frustrations with companies by proving them using such documentation.

Fair enough, I may be oversensitive to this. As a side thought maybe a good way to remediate this for a manufacturer would be to arrange a support platform as a forum where questions and answers are public. it have the benefit of being clear, plus you get the benefit of maybe getting answers to your questions. I know some do but of course not sure how relevant this is for speakers. In the end tough it could have just been returned as well, no? We could certainly blame quality control, we could even blame competence as a speaker builder that's fine, but on the first email the response is what any manufacturer would do. It needs to be return to us, and we'll take it from there. The reviewer decided to take the matter himself and demonstrated that this speaker should be build better, OK but he also show that it could have been designed better. Damping and tweeter waveguide sealing is not poor quality control, it's design flaws but that's how the speaker is specced. The OP wanted a better speaker. That's great work and I respect that. From then on I find difficult to blame poor support. He decided to fix it himself, that's his prerogative. Mr March released an imperfect speaker, with some QC issues and some misunderstanding on the cause of some problems. OK, It is then an unrecommended speaker. I don't see the need to "voice frustration" You can't blame poor support if you refused support in the first place. Let's criticize products, not individuals.

 

[Newman]

And then some. A lot of stuff going on.

Recommended watch 'egos in audio'.

Kinda feeling sorry for the guy TBH. He sounds really cut up.

Erin is an absolute legend who has done more than most for the betterment of the audio world. He is top 10 all time IMO. The guy deserves some serious respect at this point.

I hope all this can be sorted with the up most respect and professionalism

He is not banned here for no reason, nor for any single transgression.

Please keep that in mind, instead of writing posts that effectively say, “he is such a nice guy, I love him so much and he posts measurements too, so his repeated bans here must be some sort of misunderstanding and the fault of others not him, because it can’t possibly be him who falls short in ‘up most respect and professionalism’”. Okay?

If I could just say something and end off with one final question. Since you say you know how some folks appreciate data he provides (and I'm sure somewhere deep down you perhaps do yourself in virtue of both folks valuing measurements as a concept). You obviously then know we users hate seeing cool folks such as yourselves quibble over stuff like this especially when both sides claim they're willing to extend a hand in good faith (true or not is irrelevant currently). So I ask, is there ANY possible way, some sort of reconciliation is possible, not just for the sake of viewers, but for the sake of audio communities in general, and also for history's sake so outsiders don't get the self-forming images in their head that is fortified by objective review naysayers? Or am I just WAYYY off base here in asking this, and it's simply the matter of fact that you two have utterly irreconcilable value differences?

I'm not asking for public show of hugging it out, but perhaps that private phone call where you guys could (seperate from all community stakes and such) talk it out between one another.

I honestly think there's room for both players to see common ground in this situation. And I would wager many folks here would also side with me on that front with respect to this hope.

And at the end of it all, how fucking cool would it be from both sides, and from fans of both reviewers, to see some sort of happier end to this ordeal? Especially considering this whole thread mostly has it's guns aimed at March Audio rather than either of you honestly.

My comment above applies here too. Amir has repeatedly made it clear what is not acceptable on his site, and Erin has repeatedly transgressed and failed to comply with those requirements. It’s over, man, stop flogging a dead horse.

 

[Laserjock]

The ban is not the problem.

 

[GNK]

The key problem is QC with the loudspeaker. Hope the issue not be blurred by erin issue.

FYI)
OP is a reviewer in dcinside speaker gallery(s.korean audio community) who gets speakers from community users and manufactures measurements.
One community member bought the sointuva speaker and lent it to OP to be tested in weeks ago and the problem revealed.
OP reached Alan with data several times and as far as I konw, the reaction Alan showed to OP was terribly disappointing. I think OP can show some critical stance to him.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

None of this however, would stop me buying a pair of Sointuvas if I was in the market for such a speaker.

Last time I checked, we are all adults. HiFi is just an appliance to most people- they turn it on and off and really don't think much more about it. Maybe the vast majority have got it right and us 'audiophiles' are the silly ones?

I don't really see it as a deal breaker, either. But it does show they at least need some improvements to their process (and maybe response to feedback, as noted earlier). Used to have to deal with that all the time on the manufacturing floor at a company that made down-hole sensors and equipment. Even on stuff that was sound and solid design-wise. You get the documentation and process dialed in with a supplier and then later on down the road when some part has changed from one supplier to another you get a call from the floor saying there is something wrong, or worse, the thing is 10,000' down a hole under the ocean and it conked out. Things like this are a common occurrence, esp. in this day and age.

 

[muad]

Oh man I ordered these a month ago :S :S :S

They're not finished yet.

I don't know what to do.

Maybe I'll try to sell them when they arrive.

They're incredible speakers and you will not find anything else with their capabilities. If you're up to it, consider talking to John about the fixes in this forum... Or cancel the order?

Well, this speaker makes use of extremely decent drivers, and the frequency and polar response measurements indeed tend to validate a competent work by the designer, so that I understand that the pickyness of the reviewer over emphasing minor or simply irrelevant issues is no more that a kind of... trolling/buzzing with a clear intention to confuse people with more limited technical background...

The buzzing is I think what the OP was addressing. The speaker is well designed and no one is contesting that. A leak in a PR enclosure and the general QC issues in $4k bookshelf speaker is what we are discussing here.

 

[mmi]

He is not banned here for no reason, nor for any single transgression.

Please keep that in mind, instead of writing posts that effectively say, “he is such a nice guy, I love him so much and he posts measurements too, so his repeated bans here must be some sort of misunderstanding and the fault of others not him, because it can’t possibly be him who falls short in ‘up most respect and professionalism’”. Okay?

I’ve followed his relationship here closely and the bans seem hypocritical at best and petty at worst. Amir probably makes 100s or 1000s times more per sale as an actual retailer compared to the few cents or dollars Erin would receive from an affiliate link. Have you ever wondered why Amir, who obviously has many speakers lying around, only has his trusty Revels hooked up to compare every single speaker to?

Edit: to clarify my question above… since Amir sells Revels I would expect him to not use Revels as a reference if really cared about conflicts of interest.

Edit 2 for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

 

[SDC]

They are solid, not a hollow tube.

The socket used has hollow tube.

Too bad manufacturer of it advertised for both amp/ speaker. It should be amp only

 

[fluid]

I would be interested to know how you figured that out.

Practice and experience

If it was a port i would say the tuning has changed but it’s not a port so i’m curious how you’re drawing conclusions from that graph.

The tuning has changed, that can be seen in the frequency graph too

Could you please expand?

Sure. Compare and contrast the original graphs for impedance and low end frequency response. The original has two nice well defined sharp peaks with the lower one being similar in height. The size and shape of the lower peak is a good indicator of low end extension and slope, when the peak is higher the response goes deeper.

Example here with some commentary from John Atkinson
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs6-loudspeaker-measurements

In the "fixed" graph with more stuffing the peak is depressed, squashed and lopsided, this is what happens when you put too much stuffing in a box.

A passive radiator is still a resonant system, when you damp that resonance too much you lose the bass. The after frequency response shows part of the effect. More boom and a steeper rolloff.

 

[Doodski]

Used to have to deal with that all the time on the manufacturing floor at a company that made down-hole sensors and equipment.

the thing is 10,000' down a hole under the ocean and it conked out.

Cool. I worked downhole tools as well. Torque, strain, pressure to 20 kPSI and temperature to ~177C. Nice to see a fellow Dood that did that.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

Cool. I worked downhole tools as well. Torque, strain, pressure to 20 kPSI and temperature to ~177C. Nice to see a fellow Dood that did that.

That's pretty cool! Used to work Schlumberger Ltd. in their nuclear division. Definitely a challenge to get stuff to survive, especially for the nuclear sensors, generators, and electronics rated for long-term operation in drill strings at 175C, and even 200C. Was a very interesting job.

 

[SDC]

You can see the plate has been sealed to the cabinet in the original shot, showing a white silicone-like substance

That is copper shining by camera flash not sealant.

Edit: My mistake, there is silicone around. Missed the point, my apologies.