Can't we all just get along?

[hawkeyejw]

Our host did a video on this a while back. It's a place to start.

Thanks, I hadn’t seen that before. I’ll have a watch when I get a chance.

 

[abdo123]

adding a second one ain't gonna help!

Did you try it?

In my experience a second speakers help a lot, like a lot a lot.

 

[diddley]

23 minutes in and Danny is losing it.
Defensive and Ad Hominems. He is losening his business model

 

[AdamG]

Thanks, I hadn’t seen that before. I’ll have a watch when I get a chance.

Also, see post #50:

What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

if you want your speakers to dissapear you must go with one that uses reflections, dipole or omni. normal box speakers dont even compare in that regard.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[goat76]

The stereo effect is a distraction form the base sound of a speaker. Leading researchers state that using one speaker is the best test for them.

I disagree with that. Yes, some aspects of the sound like the thing you call "base sound" may be easier to hear with just one speaker playing, but there is a bunch of other aspects that you completely ignore by not listening to the pair of speakers like they were intended to be listened to. I'm not a fan of Danny but the things he takes up in that video about stereo effects, like imaging, layering, and separation are indeed things that separate different speaker pairs from each other. Those aspects are of course somewhere in the measurements and probably a combination of more than one single thing, but until someone figures that out, I think all reviewers including Amir should have the speakers properly set up in stereo, and actually listen to them like they were intended to be used.

Doodski, I'm sure you have had different speakers over the years in your listening room, didn't they all have their strong and weak points when it came to the stereo reproduction things, like depth, width, and separation? And was it always the speakers with the best measured "base sound" that came on top for all those stereo aspects?

 

[Lieglein]

I would love to read a respectful response to Danny's statements and allegations from ASR. I'm not interested in a pissin' match from forum members.

I only have one question about this video. What about the argument for an "industry standard" of smoothing out the frequency spectrum?
What is the "industry standard" or the norm?

 

[mhardy6647]

Did you try it?

In my experience a second speakers help a lot, like a lot a lot.

probably thousands of times since the early 1970s. I don't have documentation of many of those occasions, nor do I have absolute recall. I do have a lot of loudspeakers and drivers.

My experience is that stereo makes some things worse (due to interference issues), and confuses things at best.
A single good sounding loudspeaker will sound good pretty much any place, any time, in my experience, and the converse is also true.

On topic, though -- I mean, I can get along with folks who feel otherwise, and this is pretty much tangential to the thread anyway.

 

[hawkeyejw]

Not really, it's more like standing on two identical cars with one leg on the roof of one car and the others on the other. While at the same time you're trying to determine how good the experience is driving only one of them.

Yeah you lost me with this analogy, sorry. I’m talking about reviewing a product using it in the way it was intended vs. not.

What differences are we talking about here? because the only thing a typical center speakers adjusts for (horribly) is that it needs to fit under a TV.


That's usually to deal with phase alignment, lobing or diffraction issues. When these issues were solved through other design choices this went out of fashion so quick because keeping two different cabinets in stock was just not worth it. Nothing to do with Stereo.

Out of fashion or not, speakers with offset tweeters literally have a left/right assignment so that when set up, you hear them the way they’re intended. Honestly I’m shocked that the suggestion that speaker designers take the intended use into consideration when designing speakers is a controversial idea, but so be it. No use arguing the point further.

 

[ryanosaur]

I’m not sure where your response is coming from. My question was in regards to the practice of listening to a single speaker as a means of providing subjective feedback on how it sounds, when the end user will never listen to the product that way. It’s applicable to every speaker review done on this site, not just the GR LGKs. As I said, that doesn’t make much sense to me but I am interested to learn why it’s considered acceptable or even preferred by many folks here.

Because your responses read as a presumption that Danny is correct without knowing for yourself anything about Speaker Design and Speaker Testing. If I am wrong in this, I apologize.

This is not meant to be rude to you or anybody else. I am not here to defend Amir (nor am I interested in doing so). I also will not take the word of a self-proclaimed expert without due evidence that he is completely on the level. That Danny is marketing himself as such and benefits from this characterization is more than enough to call into question his motivations. That he has shown a repeated disinterest and disregard of common practices in Design and Measurement practices is enough to write him off completely.

 

[mj30250]

Has any controlled blind testing been done in which speaker A bested speaker B when each were played in mono, but speaker B bested speaker A when each were played as a stereo pair? I know of none.

To relate it to a car analogy as was done earlier, if I had a single tire, proceeded to test it against another single tire for wet traction performance, and won, the tire would continue to win against the other tire when both were installed in all four corners of the same vehicle. Even though the driving dynamics of a car with one tire would be vastly different than one with four, the better tire by itself would remain the better tire as a set.

 

[hawkeyejw]

Because your responses read as a presumption that Danny is correct without knowing for yourself anything about Speaker Design and Speaker Testing. If I am wrong in this, I apologize.

Ok, I get what you’re all about now.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ok, I get what you’re all about now.

Honesty? Forthrightness? Integrity?
That's what matters to me.

 

[squeedle]

While we're at it, what's the deal with nuclear fission, anyway? It doesn't even make sense to me, and I saw a guy on YouTube who was saying it's totally fake. So therefore the validity of it is now in question. Please take it upon yourselves to personally re-teach me all of the remedial math and science I never bothered to learn myself when I was a child in order to convince me that nuclear fission is real now. If you get too far ahead of me at any point, or show the slightest frustration, I will assume you are a liar who is just trying to trick me.

 

[Doodski]

Are you allowed to post a pdf of the whole book? Is it out of print or something?

The pdf is too large and not permitted to be posted or attached. It is available in hardcover and softcover too.

 

[Doodski]

I disagree with that. Yes, some aspects of the sound like the thing you call "base sound" may be easier to hear with just one speaker playing, but there is a bunch of other aspects that you completely ignore by not listening to the pair of speakers like they were intended to be listened to. I'm not a fan of Danny but the things he takes up in that video about stereo effects, like imaging, layering, and separation are indeed things that separate different speaker pairs from each other. Those aspects are of course somewhere in the measurements and probably a combination of more than one single thing, but until someone figures that out, I think all reviewers including Amir should have the speakers properly set up in stereo, and actually listen to them like they were intended to be used.

Doodski, I'm sure you have had different speakers over the years in your listening room, didn't they all have their strong and weak points when it came to the stereo reproduction things, like depth, width, and separation? And was it always the speakers with the best measured "base sound" that came on top for all those stereo aspects?

I retailed audio gear for 9 years and experienced thousands of different models of speakers. As well I repaired audio gear for ~15 years and provided warranty service for KEF and Energy speakers. So yes, I have heard many speakers. Some do image differently although the effect is all over so I don't think that imaging is the end all and be all of speaker auditioning. Firstly I go for frequency response and then I twist the bass and treble dials EQ/PEQ and see what kind of sound I like from the speakers. I look/listen for imaging as a last check.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I’m not sure where your response is coming from. My question was in regards to the practice of listening to a single speaker as a means of providing subjective feedback on how it sounds, when the end user will never listen to the product that way. It’s applicable to every speaker review done on this site, not just the GR LGKs. As I said, that doesn’t make much sense to me but I am interested to learn why it’s considered acceptable or even preferred by many folks here.

Then you need to read Toole's book. They did extensive testing and determined speaker differences are more obvious in mono. Less obvious in stereo, and I believe even less obvious in multi-channel. Further you might gather three or so speakers if possible and try them in pairs and in mono. See which is more different if you'd like some personal experience.

 

[Axo1989]

Has any controlled blind testing been done in which speaker A bested speaker B when each were played in mono, but speaker B bested speaker A when each were played as a stereo pair? I know of none.

Most of us have seen the early published diagram where preference for Quad ESL was dramatically different for the stereo pair. The speaker rankings didn't change, but became so close the difference was marginal. Not everybody got it, but the obvious takeaway is that narrow directivity speakers may fare poorly against wide directivity speakers when tested singly compared to testing pair-wise. That doesn't mean that single speaker listening test isn't useful, obviously it is.

To relate it to a car analogy as was done earlier, if I had a single tire, proceeded to test it against another single tire for wet traction performance, and won, the tire would continue to win against the other tire when both were installed in all four corners of the same vehicle. Even though the driving dynamics of a car with one tire would be vastly different than one with four, the better tire by itself would remain the better tire as a set.

Asymmetrical tread patterns aren't at all uncommon (including the Michelins on my car). You'd need to account for this when testing lateral grip for example. Less common but not unheard of, different tread patterns for front and rear, You'd need to account for this when testing longitudinal grip.

 

[Somafunk]

I disagree with that.

You are entitled to disagree as much as you like but that does not make you correct unless you can provide data than can be scrutinised and verified through independent analysis by other parties, advancement of scientific knowledge leading to an accredited and verified methodology is not nullified by your nor anyones personal opinion on the matter.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I only have one question about this video. What about the argument for an "industry standard" of smoothing out the frequency spectrum?
What is the "industry standard" or the norm?

Well the spin-o-rama and curves it generates developed by Toole and his team are now standards. This is a decent explanation of how it works without reading Toole's whole book.

https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Interpreting-Spinorama-Charts.pdf

CEA 2034 is the standard.

Here is more info including a link of Floyd Toole giving a talk about it in a video.

Spinorama CEA 2034-A-2015 (ANSI) data format

Objective loudspeaker measurement data - how to find it, how to interpret it, how to choose speakers based on the data.

speakerdata2034.blogspot.com

Is Danny not up to speed on this international standard? Appears he is not.

 

[mhardy6647]

Are you allowed to post a pdf of the whole book? Is it out of print or something?

[emphasis added]

given the URL, I am guessing... no.


EDIT: and seeing that the publisher is Elsevier, I am not guessing any more -- definitely no.