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Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

dominikz

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Maybe there is a point in this? Neumann KH 420 plus subwoofers KH870?
Note that the fact a commercial product allows this kind of placement doesn't necessarily mean that it is optimal from sound reproduction perspective. Other reasons for such placement could be e.g. easier integration, convenience or just esthetics.
Of course there could still be merit there (even if other research seems to point in a different direction) - we just need data to back it up.
The method for this, tunedem or tunemethod was described by Linn products in the -70 and later, more exactly by Lejonclou.
Thanks! Is there any published research available on this? So far I was only able to find Linn marketing materials and forum posts mentioning "Tune-Dem" but nothing peer-reviewed.
 

Ultrasonic

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This is valid only if you want a pitch accurate sound where you easily can follow the melodies in the bass register, from a contra bass player , an electric bass or a cello.

As far as I'm aware there is no reason that exactly the same can't be achieved using subwoofers, with their various advantages over larger main speakers.
 
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Tangband

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Note that the fact a commercial product allows this kind of placement doesn't necessarily mean that it is optimal from sound reproduction perspective. Other reasons for such placement could be e.g. easier integration, convenience or just esthetics.
Of course there could still be merit there (even if other research seems to point in a different direction) - we just need data to back it up.

Thanks! Is there any published research available on this? So far I was only able to find Linn marketing materials and forum posts mentioning "Tune-Dem" but nothing peer-reviewed.
This method for installing loudspeakers for maximum pitch accuracy in a given room works and it dont cost much , just a little time - try it.:)
 
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FrantzM

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HI

You @Pearljam5000 and your too often interesting topics... I hate you! :D Although You are not on my Hate List, for that you need first, a good system... You are on the right path though... Just Pull the trigger... Please? Get yourself your favorite Genelec in Aluminum ;), get one sub then a second and then a third, use GLM is you want to and, prepare yourself to be happy for a long time when the subwoofer and the mains are correctly integrated to each other and within the room...

Back to the topics at hand. I need to carefully read all the posts to reply correctly but here one thing I know from experience, anecdotic ... well almost, there are some measurements but ...
I discovered the works of Earl Geddes a bit late in my audiophile journey. From there I also realized that the Harman's people were/have been on similar path. I came to the realization that most any speaker in most rooms require multiple subwoofers to provide proper and accurate reproduction of music. It comes from a few scientific facts among these:
The Room dominate the response in the bass.
The better way to have a smooth response in the bass is to use of multiple bass radiators aka subwoofers.
Room treatments in the bass are necessarily big and obtrusive, due to the considerable wavelengths at play.
Our hearing apparatus takes some time upward of 50 milliseconds to recognize a bass signals of 50 Hz. Thus the response in the can be considered to be steady state.
My anecdote. I presently use two subwoofers, I am going to 3 soon but am so satisfied with what I have that I don't feel the impetus to spend money on the other sub but I will in dues time :)... I use 2 Dayton SUB-1500. These are linearized with a mniDSP 2x4 and this low-frequency system is presented to the AVR as one sub... One of the subwoofer is in the back of the room about 6 feet from the listening couch.. on one side wall about 6 feet from the back wall. Its output is considerable. The main speakers are crossed at 80 Hz... This sub is delayed by a substantial amount , I believe it to be 4 or more ms ... and Audyssey has decided that this subwoofer system (remember the AVR thinks it is driving only one subwoofer) is at 5.19 meter from the listening position... One woofer is in the front at about 3 meters from the MLP and the other in its back at about 1.8 meter... Bass is one of the best I have heard, tight, taut and satisfying... I used to debate sealed vs Ported vs IB, vs bandpass and that kind of bass quality.. What I am getting floors me , almost every day... Integration took me almost a year (perhaps more, I prefer to foret :D) of tinkering.

Conclusion.
Use good decent bookshelf speakers capable of superior output down to 60 Hz . And all the other important stuff such as directivity , low distortion, good power handling, extended FR but leave the bass to multiple subwoofer. It will cost you much less and if well done, will provide with you with a level of fidelity, full range are incapable of, limited that they are, by the laws of physics. It would be 10 to 100,000 Khz flat like an amplifier, in an anechoic room at 130 dB and 0.001% THD , once it comes in the room? ...... Hell.

Peace
 
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OP
Pearljam5000

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HI

You @Pearljam5000 and your too often interesting topics... I hate you! :D Although You are not on my Hate List, for that you need first, a good system... You are on the right path though... Just Pull the trigger... Please? Get yourself your favorite Genelec in Aluminum ;), get one sub then a second and then a third, use GLM is you want to and, prepare yourself to be happy for a long time when the subwoofer and the mains are correctly integrated to each other and within the room...

Back to the topics at hand. I need to carefully read all the posts to reply correctly but here one thing I know from experience, anecdotic ... well almost, there are some measurements but ...
I discovered the works of Earl Geddes a bit late in my audiophile journey. From there I also realized that the Harman's people were/have been on similar path. I came to the realization that most any speaker in most rooms require multiple subwoofers to provide proper and accurate reproduction of music. It comes from a few scientific facts among these:
The Room dominate the response in the bass.
The better way to have a smooth response in the bass is to use of multiple bass radiators aka subwoofers.
Room treatments in the bass are necessarily big and obtrusive, due to the considerable wavelengths at play.
Our hearing apparatus takes some time upward of 0 milliseconds to recognize a bass signals of 50 Hz. Thus the response in the can be considered to be steady state.
My anecdote. I presently use two subwoofers, I am going to 3 soon but am so satisfied with what I have that I don't feel the impetus to spend money on the other sub but I will in dues time :)... I use 2 Dayton SUB-1500. These are linearized with a mniDSP 2x4 and this low-frequency system is presented to the AVR as one sub... One of the subwoofer is in the back of the room about 6 feet from the listening couch.. on one side wall about 6 feet from the back wall. Its output is considerable. The main speakers are crossed at 80 Hz... This sub is delayed by a substantial amount , I believe it to be 4 or more ms ... and Audyssey has decided that this subwoofer system (remember the AVR thinks it is driving only one subwoofer) is at 5.19 meter from the listening position... One woofer is in the front at about 3 meters from the MLP and the other in its back at about 1.8 meter... Bass is one of the best I have heard, tight, taut and satisfying... I used to debate sealed vs Ported vs IB, vs bandpass and that kind of bass quality.. What I am getting floors me , almost every day... Integration took me almost a year (perhaps more, I prefer to foret :D) of tinkering.

Conclusion.
Use good decent bookshelf speakers capable of superior output down to 60 Hz . And all the other important stuff such as directivity , low distortion, good power handling, extended FR but leave the bass to multiple subwoofer. It will cost you much less and if well done, will provide with you with a level of fidelity, full range are incapable of, limited that they are, by the laws of physics. It would be 10 to 100,000 Khz flat like an amplifier, in an anechoic room at 130 dB and 0.001% THD , once it comes in the room? ...... Hell.

Peace
Thanks, really appreciate your comment :cool:
 

Willem

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Use good decent bookshelf speakers capable of superior output down to 60 Hz .
I would agree, but with the caveat that larger rooms will require larger 'bookshelfs'. Small bookshelfs simply cannot produce the spl needed in a larger room.
 

JimmyBuckets

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I would say impact, dynamics and lower over all distortion are benefits of a larger system. Also properly integrated drivers/crossovers would be a benefit. Plus at least to me it looks gnarly. But an actual practice for the average person with an average budget the subwoofer can get you most of the way there.
 

Willem

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I agree that bigger speakers can deliver more impact, dynamics and lower distortion. However, the advantage of a multi sub system is that it can deal more easily with the room at lower frequencies. So in an ideal world one uses both big speakers and multiple subwoofers. Realistically, smaller main speakers with multiple subs are fine as long as the main speakers are not too small for the size of the room. As an experiment I once tried the Harbeth P3ESRs from my desktop system in my main system with subwoofers in my about 6000+ cubic feet listening room. The result was pretty stunning, with deep bass seemingly coming out of such tiny boxes. However, what was missing was indeed the dynamic impact. Expecting that from the small 110 mm drivers was simply unfair in a room of this size. My regular main speakers are not bass monsters either (Quad ESL 2805s), but with subwoofer support they do produce quite realistic dynamics.
 

FrantzM

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No doubt there are some speakers out there that can reach 20 Hz at 120 dB at the listening position, but this is where it matters, the response down low may not be smooth and ... it can vary widely by the listener just moving a few inches, not even feet... Smooth response is key, not ultimate reach.
Integrating subwoofers with mains, is not a menial, light hearted, walk-in-the-park kind of proposition. It is complex, tedious and results can vary... but when achieved Multiple subwoofers, provide the ultimate IMHO and often a lesser cash outlay.
As for the dynamics brought in by larger speakers, the size of the larger speakers is due to the volume needed by the woofer to provide good and extended bass... THere could be some outlier parameters, bafle size comes to mind but it is occuring to me that some so-called "bookshelves" are quite capable of simulating the scale that we have had up to now associated with floorstanders.

Peace
 

Digital_Thor

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2 - 4 Subwoofers are very good at distributing bass evenly over a larger area - more than one person seat, without your head in a vice.
Mains are great at stereo image and... well... stereo.
Then you have to blend the two worlds. Since subwoofers have freedom of placement, that mains certainly do not. Then it makes great sense to split these two work-areas up - so to speak.

But making them blend... so that we keep the illusion of everything being one - and all that. We mostly succeed by have mains that run low, past the cross-over region of the subwoofer's domain - and preferably in a low order fashion. Anything else, and we will have all sorts of suck-outs and peaks.

I have it working pretty well. But I used different cross-overs, different gain/levels, different placements, different sizes, mains that run to around 60Hz with a 6dB slope, and subwoofers that cross anywhere between 80 and 130 Hz. Everything closed boxes and 4 subwoofers. I could maybe succeed with 3. But I had the amplifiers and the filters... so why not.

I tried to pump immense amounts of power into a smaller driver unit, with all types of EQ. And the fact remains. You do NOT make it sound like a door is being slammed, by simply slapping anything small, with a greater force.
Especially leaky rooms, need big drivers to pressurize the air, so that it feels and sound big. We are not talking loud.... many things can be loud, but they do not necessarily sound big - a very distinct difference IMO.

I do agree that psycho acoustics can get you far.... and sometimes really fool you into believing many things. But physics is difficult to get around.
 
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AndreaT

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Two REL Strata III on the sidewalls of the main. One REL T-7 secondary system. One REL T-5 tertiary and a REL T-zero for my oldie Sony 36-inch HDTV CRT (unsurpassed when watching B&W movies).
 

Chrispy

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Two REL Strata III on the sidewalls of the main. One REL T-7 secondary system. One REL T-5 tertiary and a REL T-zero for my oldie Sony 36-inch HDTV CRT (unsurpassed when watching B&W movies).
Why all Rel? They're not even on my radar for value/performance.....
 

AndreaT

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They are well made. They allow (w the exception of the Tzero that I bought new at 50% discount) to wire the sub from the speakers with high impedance wires. The Strata have been working for 23 years without a glitch. I like to have subs with acoustic suspension design as they do not have a port resonance.
 

Chrispy

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They are well made. They allow (w the exception of the Tzero that I bought new at 50% discount) to wire the sub from the speakers with high impedance wires. The Strata have been working for 23 years without a glitch. I like to have subs with acoustic suspension design as they do not have a port resonance.
Not better made than others particularly. My DIY subs probably do better in that respect. Never been impressed by their performance in any case, let alone their relatively high expense for the performance (at least in the US). Just not one of the better choices IMO.
 

Chromatischism

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Great subs and great integration certainly made towers unnecessary in my situation, but as I always say, if I suddenly came into a room 3x larger, I would not hesitate to look at towers to fill the greater distances involved.

They are designed to operate below around 100Hz, which cause strain on the small speakers at high levels.
Right. Subs actually determine what kind of speakers you should have. In my experience, because you want to cross within the range of non-localizability, so that the sub is knocked down before it starts making unpleasant sounds (actually content from the main channels coming through), that puts you between 60-80 Hz with a typical LR4 crossover. And because of that, it informs what your speakers need to be capable of. I think 6.5" drivers are the minimum, but one could get away with some designs using 5.25" bookshelves crossed at 80 Hz and not played overly loud.

Some companies/people get this all wrong and pair 4" speakers with a sub crossed at 120-150 Hz. That is not going to be a recipe for the best sound. The best you can do there is to put the sub literally next to the center channel (if you have one), where it will be less noticeable. Even though that does tend to be a good location, it means such a setup can't experiment with other sub locations to find what works best.
 
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