Is new gear really better?

[Powerbench]

A general inquiry:
If you compared audio equipment by several categories/ considerations:
1. Price range under $5000,$5000-$10000, etc
2. Type/source ie. analog, digital, streaming
3. Age: last 5 years, 10 years etc
4. Components: speakers, headphones, amps etc

Have really since drastic improvements on innovation and performance? Again looking at age, component, source?

Are $20,000 systems that much better today than 10 years ago (sonically)? Have things improved at certain price ranges or across the board?

Can there be an objective and honest analysis?

Or like most things planned obsolesce? Are we fooling ourselves?

Look at rear projection tvs for example. Say thirty years ago we’re $5-10,000 now you couldn’t give one away. The first 32” Plasma tv I saw in about June 2000 was $18,000 USD when I was in Memphis, again today less than maybe $200. Same with progressive scan DVDs and so on…but I am not sure audio has made real progress for cost per dollar.

 

[abdo123]

I think the invention of the Klippel Near Field Scanner is probably the most influential thing to ever happen to the industry since the invention of the CD.

But the benefits of the NFS are yet to trickle down and have an industry wide effect.

So if you were to compare well-designed speakers from 2010 to well-designed speakers from 1990 or earlier you would probably not find a lot of meaningful differences.

Here is the Technics SB-F1 (1978)

KEF LS50 (2010)

 

[Cote Dazur]

Such an excellent OP, particularly with the parallel to what happened to video and screen technology in the same time laps.
Speakers are the equivalent interface to music as are screens for video, although screens are almost unaltered by the room they play in as opposed to the huge effect the room has on speakers. The better the screen or speaker the more they expose what is wrong with what we feed them, which is more often than not the issue both with speakers and screens.
Excellent speakers from 20 years ago are still very much relevant today, 20 years old screen not so much.
As for music source, nothing today is clearly better, more convenient yes, possibly more affordable but not performing better.

 

[DVDdoug]

I agree. The last "big change" in home audio was the introduction of discrete surround sound (which never really caught-on for music). Of course digital transmission (radio/TV/streaming) was also a big improvement.

Before that the CD was HUGE because it allows basic sound quality that's better than human hearing (flat frequency response and inaudible noise and distortion). Before that, the introduction of solid state electronics in the 1960's eliminated output-transformers in power amplifiers and that made it possible to make inexpensive amplifiers that were better than (or almost better than) human hearing.

"Similar" to Kipple, the Thiele/Small research followed by the easy-availability of computers made it possible to predict speaker (woofer) performance, indirectly leading to more good speakers on the market. There were good speakers before that but there was more trial-and-error so it was more expensive to develop a good speaker.

As electronics continues to develop it has become cheaper and easier to make good electronics and you'll find that newer amplifiers have more power at lower cost (i.e. class-D amplifiers) and everything has remote control and various digital storage & transmission/connection formats and streaming and things that add to convenience.

 

[Powerbench]

I was thinking also as an end-user is the cost-quality-performance relative.
Think of two systems each capturing a price point ie. $1000 or $5000 or $20,000 compared to equally price systems 10 ,20 or 30 years ago….are they really reproducing music that much better?

My first CD based system was about 1990 ish with a NAD 3020i, Paradigm 5s and NAD 5000 CD with the hailed Mash 1 - bit (look even in Stereophile )

NAD 5000 CD player

The $499 NAD 5000 looks nothing like most inexpensive CD players. Its plastic trim doesn't look cheap. It doesn't look expensive either, but it certainly won't be embarrassed to show its face in polite company. The front panel is neatly arranged and easy to interpret and use. It's the smallest...

www.stereophile.com

But here we’re comparing to 1991 technologies (over 30 years ago Yikes!!!)

 

[Mart68]

I'd say manufacturing in low wage economies has made good loudspeakers cheaper in real terms.

Class D has reduced the cost of high-power amplifiers.

Otherwise that's it.

 

[clearnfc]

Better is an extremely subjective and broad term. You need to define what you meant by better.

Give you an example of what is neither better nor worse. Speakers. Audio characteristic of some speakers have changed over the decades. Whether this is considered better or not, its down to individuals. Some prefer the sound from older speakers, other prefer new ones.

 

[clearnfc]

I was thinking also as an end-user is the cost-quality-performance relative.
Think of two systems each capturing a price point ie. $1000 or $5000 or $20,000 compared to equally price systems 10 ,20 or 30 years ago….are they really reproducing music that much better?

My first CD based system was about 1990 ish with a NAD 3020i, Paradigm 5s and NAD 5000 CD with the hailed Mash 1 - bit (look even in Stereophile )

NAD 5000 CD player

The $499 NAD 5000 looks nothing like most inexpensive CD players. Its plastic trim doesn't look cheap. It doesn't look expensive either, but it certainly won't be embarrassed to show its face in polite company. The front panel is neatly arranged and easy to interpret and use. It's the smallest...

www.stereophile.com

But here we’re comparing to 1991 technologies (over 30 years ago Yikes!!!)

Hard to really compare. Because its also down to individual preferences. Sometimes, certain "improvements" are not exactly wanted by certain individuals.

One common thing is subtle audio details. I would say systems today are much better in revealing these subtle details. However, some folks feel its too analytical, the sound is no longer "smooth", esp. vocals. So, "better" is a very subjective term.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I was thinking also as an end-user is the cost-quality-performance relative.
Think of two systems each capturing a price point ie. $1000 or $5000 or $20,000 compared to equally price systems 10 ,20 or 30 years ago….are they really reproducing music that much better?

My first CD based system was about 1990 ish with a NAD 3020i, Paradigm 5s and NAD 5000 CD with the hailed Mash 1 - bit (look even in Stereophile )

NAD 5000 CD player

The $499 NAD 5000 looks nothing like most inexpensive CD players. Its plastic trim doesn't look cheap. It doesn't look expensive either, but it certainly won't be embarrassed to show its face in polite company. The front panel is neatly arranged and easy to interpret and use. It's the smallest...

www.stereophile.com

But here we’re comparing to 1991 technologies (over 30 years ago Yikes!!

One could also ask the question "is a $20,000 system today actually reproducing music that much better than a $5,000 system today?"

I would say the most significant advancement in the past 30 years or so when it comes to hifi audio is the easy availability of good EQ and measurement tech for room correction. Back in the 80s I had an NAD amp and Paradigm 5SE speakers which set me back about $1200 Canadian at the time. Currently I have a Yamaha amp and Elac DBR62 speakers which set me back about $1,000 Canadian a couple years ago. I don't know if - once both systems are set up in the room and EQ'd - I'd be able to really hear much audible difference between them. Now, $1200 then is like about $3000 now so things have gotten cheaper for sure. The DBR's are certainly a "better" speaker than those paradigms - but, as far as audible sound is concerned I'm still not sure I"d hear that difference in a blind test once they are both nicely set up in the room.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

A general inquiry:
Have really since drastic improvements on innovation and performance? Again looking at age, component, source?

Are $20,000 systems that much better today than 10 years ago (sonically)?
Have things improved at certain price ranges or across the board?

In general terms ...
Today's equipment is not hugely better than what we had in the 1980s and 90s.
The good stuff now is about as good as the good stuff back then.

However; with advances in technology --Class D amplification, in particular-- the good stuff is now cheaper, smaller and runs cooler than back then.

Of course the move to Digital media and Streaming brings big changes in the way we listen to music and watch movies ... but the sound quality is still about what it was right before the stupid loudness wars started up in the early 1990s.

Of course the growing "high end" market is also a game changer ... now you can pay 5 times as much for less! Snake oil is everywhere. And a non-frugal audiophile stands to be taken for quite the trip if he or she is not careful.

The Snake Oil Problem

How deceptive marketing affects home audio

dbpages.ca

If we avoid the rip-offs ... The truth is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper.

 

[sq225917]

Chose any cheap server, decent 1k dac and whatever genelecs with sub that can fill your room.

Now find a better measuring setup pre the year 2000 - at any price. You likely can't.

More impressive, sure, that you like more, absolutely, that measurably performs better- not a chance.

That said you couldn't pay me enough money to have genlecs in my music room.

 

[NiagaraPete]

A general inquiry:
If you compared audio equipment by several categories/ considerations:
1. Price range under $5000,$5000-$10000, etc
2. Type/source ie. analog, digital, streaming
3. Age: last 5 years, 10 years etc
4. Components: speakers, headphones, amps etc

Have really since drastic improvements on innovation and performance? Again looking at age, component, source?

Are $20,000 systems that much better today than 10 years ago (sonically)? Have things improved at certain price ranges or across the board?

Can there be an objective and honest analysis?

Or like most things planned obsolesce? Are we fooling ourselves?

Look at rear projection tvs for example. Say thirty years ago we’re $5-10,000 now you couldn’t give one away. The first 32” Plasma tv I saw in about June 2000 was $18,000 USD when I was in Memphis, again today less than maybe $200. Same with progressive scan DVDs and so on…but I am not sure audio has made real progress for cost per dollar.

In my humble opinion. You can build a better system today for a whole lot less money. Yesterday's 20K is today's 5K.

 

[Descartes]

In general terms ...
Today's equipment is not hugely better than what we had in the 1980s and 90s.
The good stuff now is about as good as the good stuff back then.

However; with advances in technology --Class D amplification, in particular-- the good stuff is now cheaper, smaller and runs cooler than back then.

Of course the move to Digital media and Streaming brings big changes in the way we listen to music and watch movies ... but the sound quality is still about what it was right before the stupid loudness wars started up in the early 1990s.

Of course the growing "high end" market is also a game changer ... now you can pay 5 times as much for less! Snake oil is everywhere. And a non-frugal audiophile stands to be taken for quite the trip if he or she is not careful.

Speakers have really not transformed much even with computer design compared to TV technology especially with OLED and micro LED!

If we avoid the rip-offs ... The truth is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper.

Agreed, bought some well designed bookshelf speakers with a couple of subs!

 

[JayGilb]

Well engineered systems that recreate sound with distortion specs below human audibility have been around for several decades.

Yesterday's 20K is today's 5K.

This is the big difference. For a few hundred dollars , one can assemble a decent sounding system without having to do a lot of research.
Up your budget to a few thousand and wow. A low cost headphone amp/dac combined with a powerful class D stereo amp and a pair of quality floor standers.
I would have died for all this tech at my fingertips when I was a teenager, but am enjoying it in my old age.