The root of audiophile myths (and how we fell for them)?

[Pogre]

You submitted another abusive post!

Abusive to who?

I see this as another cheap, dishonest tactic to get out of acknowledging that you lied about, and insulted most of the people on this forum.

If I am posting abuse, please feel free to report it.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

If you are referring to the cockroach post, I happen to agree with it. Some of those guys are flat out cockroach scumbags and deserve to be called out for it. That's neither here nor there though. I Already acknowledged that you could probably find a few examples. You're ignoring that part of my post though, which is another form of dishonesty…

What do you call that?

 

[Pogre]

What do you call that?

A response to one of your replies.

Are you gonna point out who it is that I was abusive toward or just keep posting nonsense? You're the one making all the claims. Back them up.

 

[SIY]

"When you get in an argument with the village idiot, passersby will not be able to tell which of you is which."

Stop it. Please.

 

[Pogre]

"When you get in an argument with the village idiot, passersby will not be able to tell which of you is which."

Stop it. Please.

I agree. Already crossed my mind. I'm pretty thoroughly covered in it now. I give up.

 

[AdamG]

Come on guys, dial back the personal stuff and get thicker skin. You will most certainly need that here. Get along or get along. Your call.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

A response to one of your replies.

Are you gonna point out who it is that I was abusive toward or just keep posting nonsense? You're the one making all the claims. Back them up.

As a subjectivist being call a flat out cockroach scumbag! What do you think?

 

[AdamG]

As a subjectivist being call a flat out cockroach scumbag! What do you think?

Reply ban issued. Next to go?

 

[ahofer]

Why do people feel the need to announce when someone has been muted? Lol. Why not just mute and move on?

People deserve to know the effect of their statements.

 

[Pogre]

People deserve to know the effect of their statements.

Fair enough.

I was a li'l riled up this morning, got caught up in and contributed to some nonsense. Not my finest form, sorry guys. I'm only human.

 

[NTK]

Because it makes them feel powerful.

I really did mean that was some pretty serious overthinking of a relatively simple problem. When speaker box panels vibrate with the sound (caused by changing internal pressures) it is most often audible if you know what to listen for. Putting your hand on the box will tell you if the panel is vibrating. No it does not mean you will necessarily hear it as a distinct sound, but it will colour the sound you do hear.

There's no need to go knee deep into math to understand that... and there's no reason to complicate the discussion. It's akin to a long and complex protocol for checking to see if a burner is hot when all you have to do is hold your hand above it...

I saw no value in that, given that it was unlikely to be the end of the "I'm smarter than you" it started.

When you came to this forum and espouse unsubstantiated myths and folklores, be prepared to be challenged.

Here is part of what I quoted in Dr. Toole's post in AVS Forum in post #172.

Putting an accelerometer on the wall of a cabinet is not a reliable indicator of the audibility of a resonance (sorry John Atkinson).

So, if you replace the accelerometer as the vibration sensor and substitute it with your hand on the box, then suddenly it will become a "reliable indicator of the audibility of a resonance"?

Here is a test of your fundamental understanding in acoustics. Can you tell me which produces higher SPL -- a piston oscillating with a 1 mm amplitude at 100 Hz, or 0.1 mm at 1 kHz? Which one will feel to your hand to be the stronger one?

Here are the first 6 vibration modes of a simply supported rectangular plate. If they represent the vibration of a speaker cabinet wall, which one will sound loudest (or add "most colour" to the sound) in the listening position? Which one will feel to your hand to be the "strongest" vibration? And where do you put your hand? (Figure from: link)

[Edit]
I'll give another example of when "deep into math" is necessary to explain something non-intuitive.

There are people who still claim that we are "guessing" what are in between discrete digital samples in the D-to-A process. The sampling theorem should be well known enough that people care to talk about this stuff should know better. But what is the basis behind the sampling theorem? Some deep math by Whitaker, and here is the link to his 1915 paper.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

If I recall correctly, the golden eared audiophile that was made fun of was you guys, at least in the early 80s. I remember there was a caricature of the guy who said he could hear the difference between 0.04% and 0.004% THD, which would encompass probably 80% of all the gear ever tested at AMR.

Hilarious how things have changed. Of course, we were listening to lps and cassettes, so hearing that small difference in THD was probably impossible given the sources.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

When you came to this forum and espouse unsubstantiated myths and folklores, be prepared to be challenged.

Here is part of what I quoted in Dr. Toole's post in AVS Forum in post #172.

WOW ... that is REALLY impressive. It is, amazing insight and understanding ...

So here's the scenario...
Our Typical Audiophile is out looking for a new pair of speakers.
He's in the showroom listening to the latest Acme Mark7ProPlus Deluxe.
How does any of that help him in the least?
Really how does he use your amazing insights to decide his purchase?

My Gawd here's a simple thought ... put you hand on the back and see if it's vibrating!
Between a speaker with vibrating case panels and one without... I'll take the one without every time.

This morning I was all set to just log out and walk away from this place.

You guys are seriously out of touch with reality.
Even Amir with his magical AP Analyser appears to have missed a couple of serious design flaws in the Topping products.

I'm a 40 year experienced technician with about 10 years of design level experience... and I can assure you that while this level of highly esoteric insight is very helpful in designing speakers or amps it is no more useful than fresh shit on a sidewalk for the average person who's trying to decide what to buy ... and isn't that the goal here... to help people decide what to buy?

Y'all need to pull those craniums out of your rectums and have a good look around from time to time.
The world simply does not work the way you seem to think it does.

 

[NTK]

This morning I was all set to just log out and walk away from this place.

Since you seem to have changed your mind and not walk away ...

So here's the scenario...
Our Typical Audiophile is out looking for a new pair of speakers.
He's in the showroom listening to the latest Acme Mark7ProPlus Deluxe.
How does any of that help him in the least?
Really how does he use your amazing insights to decide his purchase?

Well, may be not relying on knocking the speaker cabinets with one's knuckles, but instead use spinorama measurements? After all, Amir and Erin both invested over US$100k each to get their Klippel NFS to bring us the data for free.

Y'all need to pull those craniums out of your rectums and have a good look around from time to time.
The world simply does not work the way you seem to think it does.

So you think somehow the science of acoustics do not apply to consumer audio? Because audio exists in an alternate reality and has it own set of physical laws?

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Since you seem to have changed your mind and not walk away ...

Sometimes this stuff just gets stuck in my craw.

Well, may be not relying on knocking the speaker cabinets with one's knuckles, but instead use spinorama measurements? After all, Amir and Erin both invested over US$100k each to get their Klippel NFS to bring us the data for free.

How exactly does that help when standing in the showroom auditioning a product?

Seriously ... I'd bet that fewer than 1 in 100 purchases are made the way you suggest.

So you think somehow the science of acoustics do not apply to consumer audio? Because audio exists in an alternate reality and has it own set of physical laws?

Just the opposite. I think this information is extremely useful at the design level. In fact I used information probably from the same sources you do when I designed the first pair of speakers to use (what we now call) Constrained Layer Damping... in 1977... and sold the rights to in 1979.

Your little diagrams with their coloured phase areas demonstrate my original statement that unless there is something nearby to acoustically cancel a vibration it can be audible... and you can't even see that... can you? You are literally arguing my point for me.

Your assumptions of superior knowledge really don't help anything. You don't know who I am or what I've done in life... but you decide to try to overwhelm and prove how smart you are. Why? What's that get you?

I will agree there is value in some of the stuff Amir and the others are doing. Certainly it's better than relying on subjective impressions. But there are hundreds of little "tricks of the trade" that have served technicians and knowledgeable customers for a very long time and ignoring or trying to argue them down in a self-aggrandizing display of superior knowledge just isn't helping anything or anyone.

 

[NTK]

Seriously ... I'd bet that fewer than 1 in 100 purchases are made the way you suggest.

Irrelevant. Science is not a popularity contest. Before Amir and Erin, that number was probably 1 in 1 million. The whole purpose of them getting the NFS is to change that.

Just the opposite. I think this information is extremely useful at the design level. In fact I used information probably from the same sources you do when I designed the first pair of speakers to use (what we now call) Constrained Layer Damping... in 1977... and sold the rights to in 1979.

Your assumptions of superior knowledge really don't help anything. You don't know who I am or what I've done in life... but you decide to try to overwhelm and prove how smart you are. Why? What's that get you?

I will agree there is value in some of the stuff Amir and the others are doing. Certainly it's better than relying on subjective impressions. But there are hundreds of little "tricks of the trade" that have served technicians and knowledgeable customers for a very long time and ignoring or trying to argue them down in a self-aggrandizing display of superior knowledge just isn't helping anything or anyone.

Dang! Now I may have to question you on your understanding of CLD. You familiar with Ross, Ungar and Kerwin?

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Irrelevant. Science is not a popularity contest.

Sure it is ... you are in full on alpha male mode and just screaming for the pride's attention.

Dang! Now I may have to question you on your understanding of CLD. You familiar with Ross, Ungar and Kerwin?

No, you actually don't have to do that ... I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion of anything with anyone about such esoteric and mostly useless topics .... and especially not when it all comes from a simple suggestion to put your hand on a speaker to see if it vibrates.

 

[NTK]

Dang! Now I may have to question you on your understanding of CLD. You familiar with Ross, Ungar and Kerwin?

No, you actually don't have to do that ... I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion of anything with anyone about such esoteric and mostly useless topics .... and especially not when it all comes from a simple suggestion to put your hand on a speaker to see if it vibrates.

Guess the answer is no.

 

[Unground]

At the risk of being patronising (not intended) can I suggest NTK and Douglas get in a private chat? Both clever people, both making good points from different angles. Common ground between the two would be very powerful I reckon.

Back to the topic, and a little side-shoot. I'm a layman. Pretty well-educated though sadly not in maths, engineering or sciences. Rationalist, need evidence before accepting statements as facts. I don't understand the technical details but I do (these days) understand the main thrusts, and I'm a pretty quick learner. Willing to put the work in to research the right answer for my needs.

Thought I'd done that the last time I bought some kit, now realise I was using untrustworthy sources that were perversely incentivised to feed bogus information and claim special expertise to do so. Then compounded my error buying through sales channels that are incentivised to either knowingly or (perhaps more likely) unknowingly through lack of technical knowhow perpetuate the myths (spend most on the source then amp then speakers, spend x% on cables, demos can't use switcher boxes because they degrade the signal, eq degrades the signal, zero mention of room treatment).

That's the veil that has been lifted. I have no problem admitting my mistakes.

But it's so much nicer believing all the bunkum. Audio jewellery looks so enticing. Worshipping exotica is rewarding. Lots of boxes are impressive. Fat cables must be better. My hifi is special. I am special.

So much tosh.

In the video world, standards and calibration have trickled down from professional environments to domestic tellys. Any decent OLED or LCD today is much closer to reference (against clearly defined standards) out of the box than could be dreamed of even 5 years ago. It has highly detailed calibration controls for those with (or who buy in) the right expertise and equipment to calibrate to the room. And it has Filmmaker Mode to instantly change the settings to a pre-calibrated mastering standard so your TV image looks like the Director intended.

Hollywood drove some of this. Enthusiast online reviewers did the rest.

This doesn't make the average person choose Filmmaker mode to watch their content. Many TVs are set to retina-burning brightness and saturation out of the box because that's what's needed to stand out on brightly lit retail shelves. But it's changing.

I don't see much happening like this in audio. It's like the amateur men in blazers have hold of the reins and they're not letting go.

That extends to review sites too. One that I read often has extensive calibration and measurement of TVs with discussion of the importance of doing so and not adjusting by eye. And then the old-hat subjective stuff for all the audio side.

And here's the side-shoot. I'm in the market for a new AV system. Mainly films, some music. I've shortlisted a Trinnov for the processor. But Trinnov distribute in the UK through 'traditional' hifi dealers. And I don't trust them anymore. None of them.

I trust professionals. With qualifications. And knowledge. Someone who will engineer an acoustic environment and has the expertise to do so. Not a salesperson who wants sell me 20k of bling amplifier and 5k of speaker cable because... hand-waving flim-flam wiffle.

So we are at an odd point I think. I really hope the audio side catches up. And sites like this and Erin are a big part of the solution.

 

[DSJR]

An average music loving audiophile choosing speakers may well pin it down to two models. It's my experience that they WILL NOT choose between models on a 'perceived box vibration' test but will chose on cost comparison and mainly the VISUALS, the latter because they and their partners (the real 'trousers' quite often) will be looking at the sodding things often for years!!!