What EQ settings would you recommend for the HD800?
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Sennheiser 800 HD still the best neutral openback for $1000 used?
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Remove the treble peaks and add a little bass. IMO the upper mids dip does not have to be compensated, I personally like it.
The problem lies in determining how much treble and at which frequencies has to be lowered and how much and which shelving frequency has to be used to please the owner.
When this is based on measurements it matters which target curve is used and whether or not the measurement fixture is accurate at higher frequencies (above 6kHz) and if your ears are close to a similar response as the test fixture has. The latter is unlikely.
So what EQ is 'the correct one' and to who is a highly debatable subject and possibly no one is correct in an absolute sense.
This means I would suggest to look at various measurements (and take their targets in mind) and look for common factors in the region below 200Hz and then correct lows. From there you may want to fine tune the amount of bass acc. to taste and on top of that to your preferred listening level.
Then lower the treble. This is more difficult as there are substantial differences between test fixtures above 6kHz (even very expensive HATS) and look at common factors. All of them will show elevated treble so look at 'average' levels opposite the mids and apply a smooth 'average' EQ.
Do not attempt to correct for sharp peaks and dips as these may be measurement errors.
Then you can try to add a bit of upper midrange (the dip around 3kHz) and see how much you want to correct (very low Q) to make the sound believable. To get a benchmark for this look at measurements made with expensive HATS, as these are all pretty accurate between 300Hz and 4kHz, and play with the amount of dB's if you want.
For HD800(S) all EQ agrees the lows need a boost and treble needs lowered at specific bands in any case so there's that.
I use EQ that is done in all analog so cannot supply any parametric settings. I do know I enjoy the HD800 this way.
The problem lies in determining how much treble and at which frequencies has to be lowered and how much and which shelving frequency has to be used to please the owner.
When this is based on measurements it matters which target curve is used and whether or not the measurement fixture is accurate at higher frequencies (above 6kHz) and if your ears are close to a similar response as the test fixture has. The latter is unlikely.
So what EQ is 'the correct one' and to who is a highly debatable subject and possibly no one is correct in an absolute sense.
This means I would suggest to look at various measurements (and take their targets in mind) and look for common factors in the region below 200Hz and then correct lows. From there you may want to fine tune the amount of bass acc. to taste and on top of that to your preferred listening level.
Then lower the treble. This is more difficult as there are substantial differences between test fixtures above 6kHz (even very expensive HATS) and look at common factors. All of them will show elevated treble so look at 'average' levels opposite the mids and apply a smooth 'average' EQ.
Do not attempt to correct for sharp peaks and dips as these may be measurement errors.
Then you can try to add a bit of upper midrange (the dip around 3kHz) and see how much you want to correct (very low Q) to make the sound believable. To get a benchmark for this look at measurements made with expensive HATS, as these are all pretty accurate between 300Hz and 4kHz, and play with the amount of dB's if you want.
For HD800(S) all EQ agrees the lows need a boost and treble needs lowered at specific bands in any case so there's that.
I use EQ that is done in all analog so cannot supply any parametric settings. I do know I enjoy the HD800 this way.
I have had both HD800 models but even with EQ they could not match the Stax sound in my ears. Give them a try, for example L700 or L300 Limited models.
odyo
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Filter: ON LSC Fc 100 Hz Gain 4 dB Q 0.8
Filter: ON PK Fc 2000 Hz Gain 3 dB Q 2
Filter: ON PK Fc 5800 Hz Gain -5 dB Q 8
Check this out. Mids will come forward a bit and will sound richer. Bass will be more present. So it may feel like you lost some resolution/soundstage maybe but listen like this for a time and you will be adapted to it. Let me know if you try it.
The AKG K702 are the best neutral open-back headphones (personal opinion).
The Sennheiser HD 800 S use silver-plated proprietary cables. That makes them a snake oil product not worth considering according to this forum ASR, that routinely dismisses silver-plated copper cables as snake oil.
Do you believe that treble boost/sibilance on the Sennheiser HD 800 S could be caused by the cable?
The Sennheiser HD 800 S are called extraordinarily sibilant by cheapaudioman on YouTube, and he thinks that they are not even remotely worth buying.
The Sennheiser HD 800 S use silver-plated proprietary cables. That makes them a snake oil product not worth considering according to this forum ASR, that routinely dismisses silver-plated copper cables as snake oil.
Do you believe that treble boost/sibilance on the Sennheiser HD 800 S could be caused by the cable?
The Sennheiser HD 800 S are called extraordinarily sibilant by cheapaudioman on YouTube, and he thinks that they are not even remotely worth buying.
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If neutral means Harman curve, none of those is neutral. Just take a look at frequency response measurements. I have the 701, which very similar to the 702, and after applying recommended EQ to get close to Harman target, it's another headphone. AFAIK, the 6xx HD series are more neutral.
I don’t get it. I put on my Grado’s and go wow hey I want to listen to Jonny Lang and Stevie Ray, awesome. Then I put on my HD6xx and Porcupine Tree and Pineapple Thief sounds marvellous.
I’ve never used EQ. If I’m happy should I bother??
I’ve never used EQ. If I’m happy should I bother??
That's the point, the Harman curve isn't quite neutral. But it shows a study of what the general demographic wants, right? I think that means it's like keep it simple, stupid marketing. The AKG K702 are very capable headphones when one takes price, harmonic distortion, perceived soundstage and preference EQ into consideration.
I frankly think this depends on how much you bother, so you might become more happy by trying good EQ. Adjusting EQ to what sounds good on most well-recorded music makes far more sense than adjusting EQ to the Harman curve.
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There are tons of posts about it on this site, and I'm not the most informed folk around here by far, but let's give it a try. The treble part is there to simulate how a speaker sounds in a typical room, roughly speaking. The bass part is adjusted to preference, as you say. Other target curves also have the same treble part, more or less equal. In summary, that huge peak in the treble part creates a sound that is more similar to how a neutral speaker sounds in a typical room. The bass of course is another story as it may vary a lot from room to room, so it's very difficult to have a "reference".
I've recently purchased a pair of Genelecs 8030C, which are quite neutral, and I can tell you that the sound of the 701 with recommended EQ to target Harman is much more similar to the sound of those than without EQ, in which case is quite far apart. I've made the test with pink noise, and is quite clear that without EQ, the 701 sounds more bright and with less bass than the 8030C. With EQ applied it's far more similar. Not equal, but way more similar. Of course this is not very scientific, but I've could have had the opposite experience, and it's not the case, so to me this is a hint of confirmation that this research on headphones is quite valuable.
odyo
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You have 140 messages in this forum and you write this. Please read more.
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You are entitled to your opinion no matter how objectively wrong you are.
Im not sure it matters one jot as long as they are included in the price. If they were to offer a silver upgrade for $200 then you might have a point.
No
He too is entitled to his opinion. And if talking about at RRP then he probably has a point from a value perspective. But they should be auditioned by anyone looking to spend over a few hundred $ on open back headphones.
Did you test what sounds best with well-recorded music? From what I can see, you equalized two headphones with the Harman curve as a reference. This doesn't show experience with whether the Harman curve sounds best with most well-recorded music, since the music production process didn't necessarily use exact equalization to the Harman curve.
When I wrote routinely, I meant that dismissal is the usual routine when the topic does become discussed. I didn't mean that silver-plated copper cables are dismissed about every other week. One definition of routinely is indeed "as a matter of course".
Yet, I am right that silver-plated copper cables are dismissed on this forum ASR, even by the users that are technical experts. @SIY did you mean that silver-plated copper cables can make an audible difference for the worse here?
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The Genelecs 8030C are a pair of studio monitors, speakers.
I've compared a pair of neutral speakers with the 701 with and without EQ. The point here is to be able to tell two different EQ profiles apart, and this is by far more easy with pink noise than with real music. The result is that with EQ to target Harman, the headphones sound more similar to the speakers, which correlates with what the Harman target is supposed to be.
Silver vs copper will make zero difference, except.... silver plated copper is often insulated with Teflon, which is a poor insulator for audio (mechanically lousy, triboelectric).Yet, I am right that silver-plated copper cables are dismissed on this forum ASR, even by the users that are technical experts. @SIY did you mean that silver-plated copper cables can make an audible difference for the worse here?
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Personally, I like this Monolith USB cable for $10.29. The 1 meter version just arrived back in stock today. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=33463
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I do not just believe I know this isn't the case. It is ridiculous to even suggest this. If a silver plated copper cable could do this why would Sennheiser include this with the HD800S which has substantially (but not enough) lower treble reduction.
Let me give you an example:
I measured the total DC resistance (round trip) of the HD800 cable at 2.2ohm
HD800 DC resistance = 323ohm and impedance can only become higher.
Now let's make a really weird assumption and assume at 10kHz the total resistance drops to 0.05 ohm
If it did I would measure 0.05ohm DC resistance but lets roll with it would, the silver 'skin' at 10kHz?
At 10kHz the impedance rises to 360ohm.
1V (for easy calculations) is applied to the cable.
At 1kHz the 2.2ohm the attenuation will be -0.058dB
So 2.2ohm for low frequencies (through the copper) and the treble through the silver which is not 2.2ohm but an unbelievable 0.05ohm.
This means treble would be at -0.012dB and lowest bass and mids at -0.058dB
Now we can calculate that such a cable (this example is far, far more extreme than any real world headphone cable could ever be) the upper treble (and not the sharpness at 6kHz) would be 0.046dB louder.
In reality the 'improvement' would be far less, closer to 0.01dB or so.
You think you can hear that ?
That is a paraphrase of what I told HiFi Klubben. Gathered evidence and sent it to them like a bona fide warning with regard to the Marketing Practices Act of Denmark (wouldn't surprise me if they are deceived by the snake oil themselves).
Video Called "Hear Sound Loss in Speaker Cable"
HiFi Klubben is a retailer that is located in some European countries. They have marketing about why they choose to sell the expensive audio cables from Argon Audio and Audioquest. Here is an article about that they think one can hear an improvement from the expensive speaker cables. But the...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Not all info found on the web, even from people who may find them reputable, is correct info. There are plenty of examples to be found and some have been discussed ad nauseam here (mostly about cables and wonder boxes).
Most hifi (online) magazines and a lot of reviewers simply quote manufacturer blurbs containing nonsense or believe the weirdest things. Some even have a technical background or should know better.
It is absolutely pointless to point them to errors or tell them they are wrong. One can never win the argument, not even with hard scientific facts. Theirs (and their customer's) ears tell them something different and science can't explain everything is the answer.
In the video Dave did the same test as the late Townshend (Isolda cable) did and this is an incorrect method. Of course one will find nasty sound and what one hears is not what is missing, well it is and only half of it but its all about the level of the loss.
That, what is heard, in such a test should be subtracted from the original signal (which is much, much, much higher in absolute level).
That should be compared to the input signal. In that case, depending on the actual load and cable length, might become audible at some point.
For speaker cables and longer lengths there can be audible (and very measurable) differences between cables. No one will deny that. It is plain physics and unavoidable.
Its the nonsense around it that is what 'we' don't like.
Silver for instance is a better conductor and when the same diameter/length wire is used it will lead to slightly less 'loss' of signal but equal for all frequencies.
Silver can not sound brighter simply because a cable does not favor frequencies between say 3kHz and 10kHz.
This is why the whole cable material thing is laughed away here but all of us know diameter length and load impedance are important factors for ohmic losses which at certain thresholds can become audible.
Most hifi (online) magazines and a lot of reviewers simply quote manufacturer blurbs containing nonsense or believe the weirdest things. Some even have a technical background or should know better.
It is absolutely pointless to point them to errors or tell them they are wrong. One can never win the argument, not even with hard scientific facts. Theirs (and their customer's) ears tell them something different and science can't explain everything is the answer.
In the video Dave did the same test as the late Townshend (Isolda cable) did and this is an incorrect method. Of course one will find nasty sound and what one hears is not what is missing, well it is and only half of it but its all about the level of the loss.
That, what is heard, in such a test should be subtracted from the original signal (which is much, much, much higher in absolute level).
That should be compared to the input signal. In that case, depending on the actual load and cable length, might become audible at some point.
For speaker cables and longer lengths there can be audible (and very measurable) differences between cables. No one will deny that. It is plain physics and unavoidable.
Its the nonsense around it that is what 'we' don't like.
Silver for instance is a better conductor and when the same diameter/length wire is used it will lead to slightly less 'loss' of signal but equal for all frequencies.
Silver can not sound brighter simply because a cable does not favor frequencies between say 3kHz and 10kHz.
This is why the whole cable material thing is laughed away here but all of us know diameter length and load impedance are important factors for ohmic losses which at certain thresholds can become audible.
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Phoney
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That is a paraphrase of what I told HiFi Klubben. Gathered evidence and sent it to them like a bona fide warning with regard to the Marketing Practices Act of Denmark (wouldn't surprise me if they are deceived by the snake oil themselves).
Video Called "Hear Sound Loss in Speaker Cable"
HiFi Klubben is a retailer that is located in some European countries. They have marketing about why they choose to sell the expensive audio cables from Argon Audio and Audioquest. Here is an article about that they think one can hear an improvement from the expensive speaker cables. But the...
I've allways wondered how hifi stores can sell and advertise heavy snake oil products without getting into any trouble.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I used to work in a hifi store that also sold (expensive) cables.
At one point my boss (at that time) hung up a sign in his shop that all cables could be returned if owners did not hear an improvement and always pointed to it when negotiating a sale.
In all the years I worked there NO cable was ever returned.
Placebo WORKS and ensures good sales. All you need is a convincing sales person.
At one point my boss (at that time) hung up a sign in his shop that all cables could be returned if owners did not hear an improvement and always pointed to it when negotiating a sale.
In all the years I worked there NO cable was ever returned.
Placebo WORKS and ensures good sales. All you need is a convincing sales person.
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