Can useful knowledge be gained via subjectivity?

[Killingbeans]

So objectivity in reproduction, subjectivity in production?

That could very well be a motto for ASR.

The conflicts usually happen when there's disagreement about how/where production and reproduction should be separated.

Sound engineers work sighted. I've never known one to ABX things. They do use control monitors to listen across different potential end-user gear. They have trained ears. If you've ever worked with one, you'd be surprised at how accurate they are at calling something out that can then be seen in the wavform.

Can't remember the thread, but there was a sound engineer in here who told a story about him spending a lot of time fine-tuning a fader clearly hearing changes, only to later finding out that the mixer wasn't even plugged into the playback chain.

So yes, experience definitely counts for something, but it doesn't make you superhuman.

 

[JP]

One case where sighted listening is quite useful is in setting up a turntable. Or, rather, setting up the cartridge on a turntable. Mistracking is readily audible. And as you get up into finer stylus profiles, such as Ortofon's Replicant or Shure's old MicroRidge or something like a Shibata, the sound from when its off, to when its properly aligned, is inarguably different. Unless some of you think sibilance is all in your head.

Have you ever done any properly conducted controlled testing?

I could go on for pages. The point is, a lot of very subjective decisions have been made in regards to recorded music before it reaches your stereo system. To then come in and say that its entirely useless in the playback is...I don't know. It just seems to be taking something to an extreme when personally, I apply it in areas when I can and when there's a good chance for a bad outcome (money wasted, etc) and otherwise, I just relax and enjoy myself.

It seems logical that a person should do what aligns with their goals. I think what most people here are looking for is awareness and honesty. And, remember, listening is always subjective, regardless of controls. If there are controls we can use subjective tests as objective data.

 

[SIY]

If there are controls we can use subjective tests as objective data.

This thread is a perfect illustration of my disgust at the misuse of the words "subjective" and "objective" and how it inevitably leads to fuzzy thinking.

 

[JohnVF]

Have you ever done any properly conducted controlled testing?



It seems logical that a person should do what aligns with their goals. I think what most people here are looking for is awareness and honesty. And, remember, listening is always subjective, regardless of controls. If there are controls we can use subjective tests as objective data.

I've not had any desire to put that level of scrutiny on my hobby, but I'm not against those who feel the need and understand the motivation to do so. I'd love to participate in controlled testing, though. I think it would be very interesting.

I'm just dismayed to encounter the same kind of smugness here that pervades the other forums. It's actually a bit worse, to be honest.

 

[krabapple]

Some audio free verse, in the spirit of poetry:
"Hey I'm a recording engineer!
I make a lot of subjective sound choices for a living!
They're based just on the sound, I promise!
Same as if I made those choices blind!"


Therefore subjective claims about audio difference/quality on ASR (and hey why not everywhere) are useful to me.

 

[JohnVF]

Some audio free verse:
"Hey I'm a recording engineer!
I make a lot of subjective sound choices for a living!
They're based just on the sound, I promise!
Same as if I made those choices blind!"


Therefore subjective claims about audio difference/quality on ASR (and hey why not everywhere) are useful to me.

I realize you just want to shut the echo chamber even more tightly, but I'm merely offering up more data from the field. Sorry, 'observations.'

And again, for an objective place there's a whole lot of logically fallacious commentary. If you're trying to get a rise out of me you're going to have to do way better than that.

 

[krabapple]

There is no 'trying'. There is only laughing.

some haiku:
"Makes Pink Floyd records
and swears by Mpingo discs.
Pretty useful huh?"

 

[JohnVF]

What's an Mpingo disc?

 

[Raindog123]

What's an Mpingo disc?

The Magic of Mpingo

 

[krabapple]

My mistake. Here is version 2

"Makes Pink Floyd records
and swears by Stones of Shakti.
Pretty useful huh?"

 

[JohnVF]

The Magic of Mpingo

Oh, that silly stuff. So another sort of strawman attempt.

Again, I made some observations about the recording end of things so if anybody wants to discuss, cool. If not, at least call up a wittier jester.

 

[Killingbeans]

I'm just dismayed to encounter the same kind of smugness here that pervades the other forums. It's actually a bit worse, to be honest.

Just don't take it personally. ASR get a lot of new users, all the time, who are on a one man mission to re-educate all of these poor lost souls who hate music and just wants to look at graphs and listen to their measuring instruments. Some are trolls, and some just refuse to acknowledge arguments that aren't their own. It makes a lot of the regulars on edge or simply indifferent to diplomacy. Anything with resemblance gets discarded as noise.

Take whatever olive branches get extended, and if it really gets on your nerves there's always the ignore function.

 

[JP]

I've not had any desire to put that level of scrutiny on my hobby, but I'm not against those who feel the need and understand the motivation to do so. I'd love to participate in controlled testing, though. I think it would be very interesting.

I'm just dismayed to encounter the same kind of smugness here that pervades the other forums. It's actually a bit worse, to be honest.

It doesn't need to impact how you enjoy the hobby at all. I do think that experience will bring perspective, and this is an area where a person cannot intellectualize their way through a lack of experience. It is profoundly humbling how many obvious differences simply disappear, and everyone without direct experience thinks they know what is absolutely obvious and what may not be.

I've no idea what you're reading or what you're considering to be smugness. With some 30K diverse members there's no doubt that'll you'll find just about everything here. Like anywhere else, it pays to be patient and figure out who the people are that have knowledge and experience. A lot of people here have decades of direct or directly related experience so one should consider the difference between confidence and smugness.

 

[JohnVF]

It doesn't need to impact how you enjoy the hobby at all. I do think that experience will bring perspective, and this is an area where a person cannot intellectualize their way through a lack of experience. It is profoundly humbling how many obvious differences simply disappear, and everyone without direct experience thinks they know what is absolutely obvious and what may not be.

I've no idea what you're reading or what you're considering to be smugness. With some 30K diverse members there's no doubt that'll you'll find just about everything here. Like anywhere else, it pays to be patient and figure out who the people are that have knowledge and experience. A lot of people here have decades of direct or directly related experience so one should consider the difference between confidence and smugness.

It's, for example, in the this krabapple person who has analogs on every forum imaginable. Just put him on Super Best Audio Friends and he's the guy throwing non sequiturs when somebody talks bad about Schiit. Or is it Schitt? Or Shit? I can never remember. I've been a forum moderator long enough to just ...ugh. sigh. I'm so over it.

Part of the issue with me and how much I care, or don't, is that my systems have finally settled (except, as you know, maybe my main turntable). So I'm not actively looking but things like the Topping PA-5 reviewed here do interest me, as I like a kind of underdog component and I'd think it was awesome if it stood up to my Luxman L-507u or whatever else is around here or other more expensive things that were out of reach of many people. I mean, how awesome is that? Looking at the measurements it looks like it would within its power range. I love that really good, accurate, gear that is not expensive is being taken seriously.

 

[Raindog123]

Oh, that silly stuff. So another sort of strawman attempt.

Again, I made some observations about the recording end of things so if anybody wants to discuss, cool. If not, at least call up a wittier jester.

Whats wrong with you dude? _You_ were the one asking what that mpingo crap was. I was kind enough googling it _for you, on my time_. [Well, in full disclosure, I got curious too. ]

As for ‘discussing‘, if you did not get it yet that discussing anything (but quality of questionable haiku’s) in a thread like this is below _anyone_ — whether from objectivist or subjectivist ‘tribe’ — then we’re beyond reparable...

 

[JohnVF]

Whats wrong with you dude? _You_ were the one asking what that mpingo crap was. I was kind enough googling it _for you, on my time_. [Well, in full disclosure, I got curious too. ]

As for ‘discussing‘, if you did not get it yet that discussing anything (but quality of questionable haiku’s) in a thread like this is below _anyone_ — whether from objectivist or subjectivist ‘tribe’ — then we’re beyond reparable...

Hey hey, woah, I was referring to the original slight, not your clarification of it! Thank you for googling. I googled it in the meantime, myself. I sometimes think that stuff existed as a joke and then it started selling so they just rolled with it. Guess I would, too? I mean, its easy money and many audiophiles are pretty easy marks. I'm certainly not denying THAT.

I'm happy to ride the derailed thread but earlier there were attempts by somebody to get it back on track. The message is inconsistent!

 

[JP]

It's, for example, in the this krabapple person who has analogs on every forum imaginable. Just put him on Super Best Audio Friends and he's the guy throwing non sequiturs when somebody talks bad about Schiit. Or is it Schitt? Or Shit? I can never remember. I've been a forum moderator long enough to just ...ugh. sigh. I'm so over it.

Part of the issue with me and how much I care, or don't, is that my systems have finally settled (except, as you know, maybe my main turntable). So I'm not actively looking but things like the Topping PA-5 reviewed here do interest me, as I like a kind of underdog component and I'd think it was awesome if it stood up to my Luxman L-507u or whatever else is around here or other more expensive things that were out of reach of many people. I mean, how awesome is that? Looking at the measurements it looks like it would within its power range. I love that really good, accurate, gear that is not expensive is being taken seriously.

Sometimes I wonder how many antagonists know they're an antagonist.

 

[JP]

This thread is a perfect illustration of my disgust at the misuse of the words "subjective" and "objective" and how it inevitably leads to fuzzy thinking.

And OMFG is it hard to track who's abusing it in which way. If only that were a 1:1 relationship.

 

[JohnVF]

And OMFG is it hard to track who's abusing it in which way. If only that were a 1:1 relationship.

Somewhere there exists a glossary of subjective audiophile terms and what they're supposed to mean. I've seen it. You all should have one here, specifically defining subjective and objective, as I've noticed as well that the labels are being quite broadly interpreted (and I'm guilty of it as well).

 

[SIY]

And OMFG is it hard to track who's abusing it in which way. If only that were a 1:1 relationship.

I always assume you're guilty.