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ASIO, WASAPI, Direct Sound... is there any difference in sound quality?

dasdoing

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Because of those potential issues with Windows:

But in that post you'll also find the solution.

I know, but the limiter issue seams to be theoraticly only, too. when do you have full scale in any program? ocasuanaly a transient here and there. doubt it is audible
 
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daftcombo

daftcombo

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I know, but the limiter issue seams to be theoraticly only, too. when do you have full scale in any program? ocasuanaly a transient here and there. doubt it is audible
You can have stuff going at more than 0dB if you listen to mp3s. The limiter would trigger.
 

DJuan2022

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UPDATE:
RadioBoss tech support informed me that Windows Mixer doesn't support ASIO, that's why you don't see your app in the mixer.
So apart from qualities, it is also important to know that other things can affect our work.


I am currently using the latest version of Windows 11 Pro 64-bit, updated as of today.

I've already opened a ticket at Microsoft on the issue of ASIO compatibility, it's obvious that they're not going to solve anything for me! If I am very lucky... and many other users complain about the same thing, maybe they will fix it in future updates.

For me it is important to see the app through which I transmit my radio online, that way I can mute it to be able to monitor myself through the web of my radio and hear the same thing that my listeners hear.

WASAPI is supported by Windows Mixer, I had to switch to that protocol in order to use the mixer.

As for sound quality, I don't notice any changes, I use professional studio monitors and headphones of the same quality...
 

dasdoing

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You can have stuff going at more than 0dB if you listen to mp3s. The limiter would trigger.

I don't think mp3 allows overs. it's actualy the raw music that nowadays clips.
anyways,

But with WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO you get hard clipping, which is worse than the limiter.

this is true,

now compressed music often has "glitches" when true peaks of the raw stuff is over -1dBFS. this will sound bad even when you digitaly atenuate it. it's not clipping, it's in the file
 

BeerBear

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I don't think mp3 allows overs.
MP3 decodes (ideally) to floating point audio, which can go way over 0 dBFS.
Check out the example from this post (a.mp3).

If I use shared mode in foobar2000, I can play that file with no clipping, even at full volume.
With exclusive mode it clips, unless I turn down the volume enough.
(Some other software could behave differently.)
 

dasdoing

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MP3 decodes (ideally) to floating point audio, which can go way over 0 dBFS.
Check out the example from this post (a.mp3).

If I use shared mode in foobar2000, I can play that file with no clipping, even at full volume.
With exclusive mode it clips, unless I turn down the volume enough.
(Some other software could behave differently.)

Nice, I will test this tomorrow.
 

bennetng

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You can have stuff going at more than 0dB if you listen to mp3s. The limiter would trigger.
MIDI too.
Notice the date (2013). The issue was not fixed until 2020 when foobar2000 1.6 was released and replaced DirectSound with WASAPI shared mode. It was not DirectSound's fault but foobar's way to handle DirectSound volume control was bugged (in other words, optimized for Windows XP and earlier instead of Vista and later) from version 0.9 to 1.5, so more than a decade.

I also have BASSMIDI driver installed so that I can have high quality SoundFont synth when playing old games. The synth output volume needed to be adjusted to avoid distortion.
index.php


Some field recorders use 32-bit float .wav as recording format too, here are some demo files with 0dBFS+ data:

Also realtime DSD to PCM playback (so that additional DSP can be applied). It is well-known that some DSD titles are mastered at non-standard levels (e.g. Michael Jackson Thriller). 1-bit DSD data will be converted to 32/64-bit float with digital low pass to remove ultrasonic noise, this process can generate 0dBFS+ data.

In either case, if a floating-point compatible volume control is not used, hard (exclusive mode) or soft (shared mode) clipping may occur. If the clipped parts are brief or not severe enough, hard clipping can have higher perceived volume instead of audibly distorted. Some may think that the marginally clipped version sounds better than the one with a limiter applied, especially for percussive sounds.
 

dasdoing

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MP3 decodes (ideally) to floating point audio, which can go way over 0 dBFS.
Check out the example from this post (a.mp3).

If I use shared mode in foobar2000, I can play that file with no clipping, even at full volume.
With exclusive mode it clips, unless I turn down the volume enough.
(Some other software could behave differently.)

impressive; it doesn't sound bad with the limiter. and in exclusive the distorsion is terrible.

actualy, expecting a limiter to not produce overtones is kind of naive, right? the limiter is not bad
 

Katji

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UPDATE:
RadioBoss tech support informed me that Windows Mixer doesn't support ASIO, that's why you don't see your app in the mixer.
So apart from qualities, it is also important to know that other things can affect our work.


I am currently using the latest version of Windows 11 Pro 64-bit, updated as of today.

I've already opened a ticket at Microsoft on the issue of ASIO compatibility, it's obvious that they're not going to solve anything for me! If I am very lucky... and many other users complain about the same thing, maybe they will fix it in future updates.

Is this a "feature" of Windows 11? As in they removed or broke something that was there for years?
 

DJuan2022

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Is this a "feature" of Windows 11? As in they removed or broke something that was there for years?

I honestly don't know if it's Windows 11, I've never used an app configured in ASIO with Windows mixer before. I don't know if with Windows 10 and previous versions those apps could be displayed in the mixer.
 

Katji

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I assume that is the case - that it's a Windows 11 thing. i.e. A problem. (Good illustration of Microsoft shxt. We going to be hearing about it for the next 5+ years, especially from new generation of users who naively let Ms install their updates automatically.)

All those DAC device drivers are ASIO drivers. When that driver has been installed, the device will appear in the Windows Volume Mixer. Otherwise there is something wrong - with the driver package or with Windows.

Microsoft should be held accountable for their shxt.
 
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tvrgeek

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But with WASAPI Exclusive or ASIO you get hard clipping, which is worse than the limiter.
How do you get clipping if you are not boosting by EQ or something? All ones is all ones. So clipping I suggest is a user not understanding how it works, not technology.

I THOUGHT I might have heard a difference WASAPI vs direct, but could not swear to it using headphones. I would say not with speakers. (W-10) Differences in DACs were very clear. I gave up trying to get an ASIO capable music server configured as I do WMP, so direst it is. I only CUT in eq APO. Maybe if I upgrade my cans I could hear a difference. Likely depends on the source as the average level on CDs vary a lot.
 

Monstieur

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How do you get clipping if you are not boosting by EQ or something? All ones is all ones. So clipping I suggest is a user not understanding how it works, not technology.

I THOUGHT I might have heard a difference WASAPI vs direct, but could not swear to it using headphones. I would say not with speakers. (W-10) Differences in DACs were very clear. I gave up trying to get an ASIO capable music server configured as I do WMP, so direst it is. I only CUT in eq APO. Maybe if I upgrade my cans I could hear a difference. Likely depends on the source as the average level on CDs vary a lot.
AAC and MP3 decode to floating point which can go above 0 dBFS and clip if the output format is integer (typically 16-bit / 24-bit). The file itself has no clipping, but the data is lost at the output stage. On macOS with a 32-bit float interface like an RME Fireface, you can see the meters exceed 0 dBFS. On a 32-bit float input the meters show the actual value above 0 dBFS, but if you route the audio to an integer output like SPDIF to a DAC, it clips with OVR.

The RME drivers on Windows don't support 32-bit float output, so the only way to avoid clipping is to reduce the volume in the player. It must be done in the player and not in Windows because WASAPI requires the player to resample the audio to match the output format. Reducing the volume in Windows or Equalizer APO avoids only CAudioLimiter - the player has already clipped the audio at 0 dBFS.

The Mastered for iTunes certification guarantees that tracks don't clip above 0 dBFS. A lot of other tracks in the iTunes Store and Apple Music clip heavily. Applying negative gain to these albums in iTunes' track properties fixes it.
 
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DJuan2022

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I assume that is the case - that it's a Windows 11 thing. i.e. A problem. (Good illustration of Microsoft shxt. We going to be hearing about it for the next 5+ years, especially from new generation of users who naively let Ms install their updates automatically.)

All those DAC device drivers are ASIO drivers. When that driver has been installed, the device will appear in the Windows Volume Mixer. Otherwise there is something wrong - with the driver package or with Windows.

Microsoft should be held accountable for their shxt.
I do not use any Windows drivers, in fact I do not allow downloading and less updating drivers from Windows Update.

I use the manufacturer's interface drivers (Behringer in my case), but RadioBoss developer told me that's normal with all ASIO apps, they don't show up in the Windows mixer and he's still using Windows 10 (I think).
 

Monstieur

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I do not use any Windows drivers, in fact I do not allow downloading and less updating drivers from Windows Update.

I use the manufacturer's interface drivers (Behringer in my case), but RadioBoss developer told me that's normal with all ASIO apps, they don't show up in the Windows mixer and he's still using Windows 10 (I think).
ASIO is intentionally designed to bypass the system mixer - it will not show up in the mixer on any OS. If you want volume control through the Windows mixer, you must use WASAPI Shared mode.
 

Katji

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I do not use any Windows drivers, in fact I do not allow downloading and less updating drivers from Windows Update.
They are all Windows device drivers, not Microsoft drivers. iow They are Windows drivers for those devices, written by the manufacturers of the devices.
The device driver is an interface between the device and the OS (Windows) ...The OS provides application programs with an interface to hardware devices. (Roughly speaking.)

Typical DAC [ASIO] drivers, developed by Thesycon for XMOS devices, customised by DAC manufacturer ...are Windows drivers, they are for the ms Windows OS [i.e. will not work, will not install on other OS.
...Like the apps/application programs are Windows apps, i.e. written to run on Windows.

The Windows updates problems...regarding 3rd-party device drivers...happens because the Windows update involves changes to the underlying system...then the 3rd-party developers need to modify their drivers accordingly. Which takes some time.
 

Katji

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ASIO is intentionally designed to bypass the system mixer - it will not show up in the mixer on any OS. If you want volume control through the Windows mixer, you must use WASAPI Shared mode.

XMOS/Thesycon ASIO driver installed...

1642596628084.png



Windows Volume Mixer...

1642596723092.png
 

Monstieur

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XMOS/Thesycon ASIO driver installed...

View attachment 180196


Windows Volume Mixer...

View attachment 180197
The driver package is actually two drivers - WDM and ASIO. The WDM driver shows the device in Sound settings and the mixer. The ASIO driver is visible only in ASIO-aware applications. The drivers can support simultaneous playback of ASIO and WASAPI (Exclusive or Shared) if designed to do so.

WASAPI Exclusive silences only other WASAPI streams when in use - it can still be mixed with native ASIO. This does not apply to ASIO4ALL as it uses WASAPI Exclusive or Kernel Streaming as the backend.

If the WDM driver uses hardware volume control, there may be odd interactions like the ASIO stream being muted by the Windows volume control, but the ASIO stream is still being mixed in. On Windows 11, the mute button or 0 volume does not silence WASAPI Exclusive streams anymore, at least on devices with software volume control.
 
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levimax

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How do you get clipping if you are not boosting by EQ or something? All ones is all ones. So clipping I suggest is a user not understanding how it works, not technology.

I THOUGHT I might have heard a difference WASAPI vs direct, but could not swear to it using headphones. I would say not with speakers. (W-10) Differences in DACs were very clear. I gave up trying to get an ASIO capable music server configured as I do WMP, so direst it is. I only CUT in eq APO. Maybe if I upgrade my cans I could hear a difference. Likely depends on the source as the average level on CDs vary a lot.
Digital clipping with EQ and even without EQ may be more common than people think. I ran a 0 dB sweep on my system (WASAPI Exclusive with Foobar200) and was surprised to hear "hard clipping" when using room EQ which was supposed to allow for that, I had to back off an additional 4 dB to eliminated it. Even without EQ there was some digital clipping with the 0 dB sweep. I am not sure how accurate of a test a 0 dB sweep is... it might be overkill? I do notice that some songs that previously had come "clicks" in them during loud passages no longer do after the -4 dB adjustment. What is the "best" way to check your system digital clipping?
 
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