When will higher power Purifi modules be released?

[bh69]

In short: A 1000W and a 10W amplifier can create the exact SPL with almost any speaker at the same listening distance by simply adjusting the volume/gain.

Can you explain more ? I really don't understand what you mean ... Or you don't understand what I have wrote ...

To get the same SPL from 1000W amp as from 10W input signal must be appx. 20dB lower.
So if I have DAC with preamp function (in digital domain) I would need to set -20dB or and use -20dB attenuator on amp inputs. Why to do this when I can have much cheaper 10W amp ??

 

[bh69]

 

[bh69]

 

[Holmz]

Can you explain more ? I really don't understand what you mean ... Or you don't understand what I have wrote ...

To get the same SPL from 1000W amp as from 10W input signal must be appx. 20dB lower.
So if I have DAC with preamp function (in digital domain) I would need to set -20dB or and use -20dB attenuator on amp inputs. Why to do this when I can have much cheaper 10W amp ??

Most amps have a similar amount of gain.

 

[bh69]

10W amp has the same gain as 1000W one ?

But I understand now - what I'm really looking for is an amp with low gain.

 

[DanielT]

View attachment 175040

View attachment 175040

The interesting thing is the dynamic range of the music you play in relation to volume and then the appropriate effect.
Headroom and more headroom is good to have.

Letting a powerful subwoffer amp take care of the lowest frequencies, to unload other amplifiers / speakers is smart. A sub amp that can handle tough loads and low ohms. By the way, PMA, in the thread (the link you got): "BTW, a good amplifier must" handle "2ohm load! I would never use an amplifier that can not do so."
This PMA refers to full-register amplification.

 

[Holmz]

Most amps have a similar amount of gain.

Why?

Usually one just adjusts the preamp to have the power go low, or go high, or go somewhere in the middle
What specifically does a low gain give you?
(Maybe if the amp is hissing like a Pentecostal revival with a bag of snakes, then it makes sense to have lower amp gain to get rid of the hissing.)

If one had a passive preamp and liked low level listening, then it would also make some sense as the output impedance is lower.
But I am not sure if passive preamps are even a thing anymore.

 

[sarumbear]

Can you explain more ? I really don't understand what you mean ... Or you don't understand what I have wrote ...

To get the same SPL from 1000W amp as from 10W input signal must be appx. 20dB lower.
So if I have DAC with preamp function (in digital domain) I would need to set -20dB or and use -20dB attenuator on amp inputs. Why to do this when I can have much cheaper 10W amp ??

Music has a crest factor of 10+ which means the difference between lows and peaks is 20dB or more. There is no way to calculate what level you will be listening precisely by using a calculator like you are doing. You must use a volume control at the end of the day to get the volume you want by experiencing.

The power value of an amplifier is how much power it can send to the speaker. That has almost no bearing to how loud you will be hearing in your room. A low power amplifier can sound as loud of a high power amplifier if it is clipping -- and it will clip. That is why we prefer a high power amplifier, so that it doesn't clip and distort. Not because we necessarily need the power. We need the voltage swing capability.

 

[Holmz]

Music has a crest factor of 10+ which means the difference between lows and peaks is 20dB or more. There is no way to calculate what level you will be listening precisely by using a calculator like you are doing. You must use a volume control at the end of the day to get the volume you want by experiencing.
…

If one uses an SPL meter then they get an idea of the mean SPL.
The mean or RMS wattage then falls out easily.
And the peak wattage can be inferred from the crest factor.

@sarumbear

• Crest is voltage based?
• So we 2x iut for power?

…
The power value of an amplifier is how much power it can send to the speaker. That has almost no bearing to how loud you will be hearing in your room. A low power amplifier can sound as loud of a high power amplifier if it is clipping -- and it will clip. That is why we prefer a high power amplifier, so that it doesn't clip and distort. Not because we necessarily need the power. We need the voltage swing capability.

Totally agree ^here^.
Again it is where the iPad SPL can be handy.
I was listening to some speakers a couple of months ago and we could not hold a conversation, but they had a quiet sound… or at least not a loud sound.
(Which I find that they usually do when the distortion is very low.)

If the distortion is high, and if there is clipping, then they often sound louder than the SPL suiggests.

One could use a 1W amplifier, maybe on the tweeters.
However the voltage swing required for the bass notes consumes most of the power so 100W/ch amp are more of a standard unless one is bi/tri amped or using an active XO.

Assuming that one is not listening at solely an SPL of 65dB.

 

[daniboun]

This is a typical pure theory. . Anyone can calculate the required power with sensitivity, but it does not explain the problem. . The equal loudness curve of the human ear, the low frequency 100dB is only 8 90dB when you listen, not to mention the more than ten dB of attenuation caused by the big valley of the room. The result is that 10W power is sufficient, but hundreds of watts of margin are required.

I do not know why we persist in wanting ultra powerful amps, I add to your reflection this:

 

[Holmz]

I do not know why we persist in wanting ultra powerful amps, I add to your reflection this:

Was the meter reading RMS watts or peak wattage?

 

[boXem]

Was the meter reading RMS watts or peak wattage?

Peak wattage doesn't exist .
It is reading RMS Volt sampled at an unknown period. The demo would have shown any interest if the meter would have recorded peak RMS Volt. But it would have completely destroyed the message. Not speaking about the BS following. The guy has clearly no idea of how amplifiers work, and I seriously doubt about his competencies in acoustics.

 

[abdo123]

In my experience the majority of people listen at around 68-70 dBSPL (Z-weighted, RMS level), anything higher and the volume will be louder than a conversation and that will trigger the 'music is too loud, bring it down' response.

 

[DanielT]

I do not know why we persist in wanting ultra powerful amps, I add to your reflection this:

There seems to be a bit of a polarized view regarding how much power is needed here at ASR. For example, many are on fire and flames over the new Topping PA5 (it seems really good by the way). There are even those who now use it as a main amplifier together with speakers that have around 87-88 dB sensitivity (I saw in that thread about PA5). That while others with the same type of speakers would not even consider using it, not even if it took care about anything over 80-100 Hz (separate sub amp to the lower frequencies). I take no side regarding this with PA5 but is most fascinating that it can differ so much between what people consider to be sensible power regarding amplifiers.

 

[boXem]

The main mistake is to consider that everybody has the same needs.
Between somebody listening heavily compressed music in a small flat with modern furniture, huge windows, high sensitivity speakers, and somebody listening pre-loudness-war music in a huge and perfectly damped room with low sensitivity speakers, it is just black and white requirements.
But in my eyes the general rule is that getting too much power is never a problem, not enough is an issue.

 

[DanielT]

The main mistake is to consider that everybody has the same needs.
Between somebody listening heavily compressed music in a small flat with modern furniture, huge windows, high sensitivity speakers, and somebody listening pre-loudness-war music in a huge and perfectly damped room with low sensitivity speakers, it is just black and white requirements.
But in my eyes the general rule is that getting too much power is never a problem, not enough is an issue.

Absolutely. I agree with that and why I put the calculator in the thread, plus some information about what you mention. Of course it does not give the ultimate explanation, but it can give some indication in any case:

How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

Feel free to use this calculator. Add sensitivity to the speaker and then tell which effect you have chosen and why. Weigh in that you want some headroom. http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/REAP.html You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you...

audiosciencereview.com

Speaking of type of music, see post # 26 in that thread, regarding classical music. The difference between silent and explosive parts in classical music, the dynamic range. Plus she mentions compressed recordings.

Take a subwoofer amplifier. There if anything it is just to load with power ... and more power ..

 

[Holmz]

Peak wattage doesn't exist .

It sort of does… At least peak voltage does.

But… yes, it was a trick question, as the measurement was RMS wattage. So with 20dB of dynamic range, then one can infer peak wattage (rail voltage) as being a lot more than the few watts of RMS shown on the meter.

@daniboun seemed to infer that is 2-5W shown on the meter meant that a 2-5 amplifier would work… which in reality is a 40-100w (RMS) amp with the dynamic range of music… and it would be putting out 2-5W (RMS).

It is reading RMS Volt sampled at an unknown period. The demo would have shown any interest if the meter would have recorded peak RMS Volt. But it would have completely destroyed the message. Not speaking about the BS following. The guy has clearly no idea of how amplifiers work, and I seriously doubt about his competencies in acoustics.

Well he does have salesmanship

 

[Digital_Thor]

well.. one thing is SPL.... but what about frequency? If I want .... let's say 85dB of music, then my guess is that it requires more power to drive a bigger system at 85dB with a lot of low frequency content, in contrast to the power needed for listening with a small speaker, listening to a podcast or some radio talk.

 

[boXem]

well.. one thing is SPL.... but what about frequency? If I want .... let's say 85dB of music, then my guess is that it requires more power to drive a bigger system at 85dB with a lot of low frequency content, in contrast to the power needed for listening with a small speaker, listening to a podcast or some radio talk.

It is a guess that a lot of people do. But it is unfortunately not true.
General rule it that small speakers are less efficient than big ones. So you will need more power to get 85 dB at low frequency from the small speakers than from the biggies.

 

[levimax]

Room/ speaker EQ can greatly increase amp power requirements. The EQ for my room requires 9.2 dB of head room... so suddenly my 350 watts per channel becomes 40 watts per channel.