Rotiv
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The one I like.and what amp did you get using your sophisticated purchasing decision?
The one I like.and what amp did you get using your sophisticated purchasing decision?
Certainly recently, Harbeth used regularly serviced Quad amps at the factory and pics have been posted showing a pro model 520 at least being used. Other claims have been made of use of 606 family amps and even a 303 for tweeter testing a while back...Maybe has something to do with international distribution, dealer networks, lifestyle marketing…and less (nothing) to do with synergy…and are you sure they use them in development? Really?
I believe you don't, but in forums off clothes and handbags they do. Also on the website of those brands.There will be a lot less stones being thrown if people based their purchasing decisions on reality instead of buying stuff based on BS audiophile reasons while getting defensive because their product didn't measure well.
For example I spend more than I need to on clothes and handbags, but I don't say my handbags transcend space and time, and the leather is so pure the imperfections are not measurable even with an electron microscope. I'm realistic about what I'm buying and why I buy it.
If I was KEF, or indeed Hegel, I’d be shutting that dealer down, as they obviously don’t have a clue what they’re doing.Yes, as a "new special delight" product. And the source material was my burned "demo CD" favourites so I did have a little "sense" of what was presented. Somewhat disappointed re: price & all that slick curviness. But the amp was definitely not doing what those KEFs needed. Shame?
I've seen it before too. Some audio sales people think combining a low powered inexpensive amp ($2K is not much in high end) with big expensive difficult to drive speakers is some sort of statement.If I was KEF, or indeed Hegel, I’d be shutting that dealer down, as they obviously don’t have a clue what they’re doing.
Maybe your speakers produce higher distortion and dominate or your hearing isn't as good as others...when I crank up my H95 to 99 (max) I don't hear a thing, zero. so not sure how it correlates to all those noise and distortion measurements.
I do and consider anything longer unnecessary, especially when comparing two components.you call 1 hour an evaluation? you must be kidding
LS50 Meta and don't worry about my hearing it is very good. Also, I said I don't hear anything when I should hear more noise if according to you my speakers were producing more distortion to "dominate" amp. what a great logicMaybe your speakers produce higher distortion and dominate or your hearing isn't as good as others...
I said maybe your speakers do and maybe it could be your hearing Sounds like your golden ears and perfect speakers have you satisfied, enjoy the hobby.LS50 Meta and don't worry about my hearing it is very good. Also, I said I don't hear anything when I should hear more noise if according to you my speakers were producing more distortion to "dominate" amp. what a great logic
Well, those of us who own multiple amplifiers and aren't married to any of them know it is almost impossible to distinguish blind between, say, a 10yo cheapish Yamaha stereo amp, Hypex NC400 monoblocks or more expensive "audiophile" amplifiers as long as you don't push them outside of their driving abilities.Maybe your speakers produce higher distortion and dominate or your hearing isn't as good as others...
Which is exactly the problem. Same gain level is a criterion simply not applicable in this case. We don't even know the internal DAC send level at its analog port, do we? So how can we know the required gain?
Rather, you have opted to fudge with the digital input level to get to the same output with that fixed gain only useful for the analog input.
Amir, c'mon, it's time to admit you made a methodological error. Nothing wrong with that, because "He who does nothing makes no mistakes".
But you may want to rethink your methods (hint: look at how SoundStage did it), actually I (and many others) urge you to do so as otherwise your credibility is falling apart more and more....
... I have little hope this will ever happen because Narcissists don’t learn from their mistakes because they don’t think they make any
I just used the 8W/ch SET tube amp as an example. It's not just the bass, it's actually the other parts of the spectrum too. I don't have measurement devices aside from a cheap dB meter that I used to level match with a 1kHz tone, so likely the non-linearity of other amps I had at the time also played a part? Overall I just didn't like the Hegel RostBut can not tube amp have a certain increase in the bass frequencies? (not sure all tube amps have a straight frequency curve/respons that is). If so, maybe it's because of that what you thought sounded better?
SoundStage report actually states that the analog input gives 8dB better performance than digital, which is consistent with what I said and overall points to the direction that this amp is being hurt by its bad DAC in all types of usages.I don't understand what the issue is with the review. It seems to me that there is sufficient information in different graphs and measurements provided by @amirm that anyone who has reasonable facility with elementary math should be able to derive the parts that aren't explicitly stated. And they do more or less match the conclusions of the review. Take overall SINAD for example, and let's agree with your objection that the digital input level fed to the system was too low and the amplified DAC noise hurt the number more than it would in typical usage. Sure, but there is also the IMD sweep graph that gives you SINAD for the DAC without clipping and it's at best 82dB. The amplifier itself is also measured from analog input to give SINAD of 82dB at best for any power output. So what we have is a cascade of two systems with equal SINAD, which one can show that results in about 6dB lower overall SINAD, so we will have about 76dB SINAD at best for the integrated amp when measured in best level performance of the DAC and amp, which is only a few dBs better than what amir reported and confirms his summary that the DAC is hurting the amp stage.
what am I missing?
I know this has been answered, but here's another spin. First of all both reviews sing the praises of the Hegel, only in the case of the second review, he said digital (and here he goes off the deep end to explain that it's the best kind of digital and starts mumbling about algorithms and whatnot to explain the "artificial" wide separation instead of merely accepting the intrinsic limitations inherent to phono playback, before finally admitting he has no idea what he is talking about) but goes on to make claims about how exceptional the sound was, and then concludes the review with analog sucked, I tried and tried, and this unit simply couldn't make magic.Is really SINAD the name of the game? Is it really that simple? Hard to imagine all those companies not being able to pull almost anything they would want for the money they charge. Maybe there is a little more to the sound than just SINAD. Why not stick with Amazon Link or March Audio P122 with 100 sinad for 600$ and call a day? Why Herbeth, Keff, Dynaudio, and other companies use Hegel to present/develop their speakers? Are they that stupid to not know?
Also here are two reviews one prising Hegel H90 and the other not liking H390 sound but they both speak about common Hegel sound characteristics (pitch-black background and instrument popping out of that background etc.). So it seems Hegel might sound at least somewhat different than other amps:
a guy who like Hegel sound
this guy doesn't like Hegel
I don't know, maybe a flat FR and a high damping factor that chokes the joy out of music? /s"Dull and uninvolving", when it comes to an amplifier, I think would have to show up in its measurements somehow.
SoundStage report actually states that the analog input gives 8dB better performance than digital, which is consistent with what I said and overall points to the direction that this amp is being hurt by its bad DAC in all types of usages.
View attachment 169110
Ok, I better see the issue after reading the first post. I suppose there can be a DAC whose SINAD improves as one increases the input level beyond -11dBFS. I opened a bunch of past DAC reviews and looked at the same graphs for those and they mostly either flatten or actually get slightly worse. Is there a general pattern seen in practice?Better to identify here : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...streaming-amplifier.28435/page-46#post-992401
The ~8dB difference is a rather benign wide-band analog noise difference, apart from the 60Hz peak in DAC (which is of no consequence as it is still below the analog noise floor).
As for the question which parts hurts which (using the soundstage plots):
- The DAC hurts the amp in best-case noise by 8dB
- The amp hurts the DAC in distortion, by at least 10dB