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Which Speakers Are Know To Have The Best Spinorama Measurements?

preload

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I am volunteering. For preference score vs price, for Revel there is almost linear, and quite steep, relationship between score and price, starting from the relatively inexpensive M105s/M106:


View attachment 145544

Interestingly, this relationship breaks when looking at preference scores with subwoofer:

View attachment 145546

where M105/M106 dominate the scores. What does it mean? One interpretation would be that the primary advantage of big, expensive floorstanders is LF extension, take that away and well designed bookshelves get to shine (assuming an ideal sub integration, of course).

You win the internet tonight for doing this analysis! Very interesting.

Also, some smart person a little earlier predicted this. I think he wrote:
"It might be an interesting experiment to plot $ vs pref score (w/sub) for Revel speakers only. I would predict that the correlation is poor or only weakly positive."
Lotsa smart people here.

So the next question is: "Gee, so does that mean I can add a subwoofer to an M105/106 and make it sound just as good as a Salon2?" And I think we all know the answer to that... uh oh...
 
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AudioJester

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You win the internet tonight for doing this analysis! Very interesting.

Also, some smart person a little earlier predicted this. I think he wrote:
"It might be an interesting experiment to plot $ vs pref score (w/sub) for Revel speakers only. I would predict that the correlation is poor or only weakly positive."
Lotsa smart people here.

So the next question is: "Gee, so does that mean I can add a subwoofer to an M105/106 and make it sound just as good as a Salon2?" And I think we all know the answer to that... uh oh...

The Rythmik subs measured by Amir did very well. Combined with miniDSP SHD and M105/106 should do well?
 

Chromatischism

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where M105/M106 dominate the scores. What does it mean? One interpretation would be that the primary advantage of big, expensive floorstanders is LF extension, take that away and well designed bookshelves get to shine (assuming an ideal sub integration, of course).
With Revel it is not that. Even the towers benefit a lot from subs. They opted for efficiency and output, which is the right choice (IMO).
 

Ata

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With Revel it is not that. Even the towers benefit a lot from subs. They opted for efficiency and output, which is the right choice (IMO).

I agree, but the question is why the larger and more expensive Revels benefit less from the addition of an ideal sub, so much so that the small ones overtake them with a good margin (approx. 1.0 difference between the most expensive and 105 with sub). Answering this probably requires us to look into the other components of the preference score for these speakers.
 
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Ata

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The Rythmik subs measured by Amir did very well. Combined with miniDSP SHD and M105/106 should do well?

Definitely, as long as the sub integration is good -- that can be achieved with either a miniDSP or most AV receivers.
 

Ata

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You win the internet tonight for doing this analysis! Very interesting.

Hey, where is my "like" then? :)

Also, some smart person a little earlier predicted this. I think he wrote:
"It might be an interesting experiment to plot $ vs pref score (w/sub) for Revel speakers only. I would predict that the correlation is poor or only weakly positive."
Lotsa smart people here.

Don't keep us on the edge, please share what is this intuition borne of?

While it is obvious that score with sub will benefit smaller speakers more so than the larger ones, it is much less obvious that smaller speakers will overtake the large ones by such a convincing lead. Why would that happen, the larger boxes are more expensive, with better drivers, better bracing, more attention to design (?)... Is this a quirk in the preference score formulae?

So the next question is: "Gee, so does that mean I can add a subwoofer to an M105/106 and make it sound just as good as a Salon2?" And I think we all know the answer to that... uh oh...

It may not be better, but can be very close, I expect.
 

Chromatischism

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I agree, but the question is why the larger and more expensive Revels benefit less from the addition of an ideal sub, so much so that the small ones overtake them with a good margin (approx. 1.0 difference between the most expensive and 105 with sub). Answering this probably requires us to look into the other components of the preference score for these speakers.
I'm rather uneducated on the formula itself but my guess would be that it doesn't scale linearly.
 

Sancus

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Why would that happen, the larger boxes are more expensive, with better drivers, better bracing, more attention to design (?)... Is this a quirk in the preference score formulae?

Yes, it is. The score prefers a steeper PIR slope which can be a result of narrower directivity(all else being equal). Revel speakers are generally wider dispersion with shallower sloped PIRs as you go up the lineup.

Additionally, it does seem a bit harder to perfectly tune the FR of larger, multi-way speakers without access to DSP(actives dont have this problem). For example if you just look at the measurements of the M105 vs the 328Be, the M105 is flatter on axis. This is confirmed by the fact that it has an advantage in NBD_ON in the scoring spreadsheets. M105, 328Be (see "Breakdown" tab).

Of course there are pros to the larger speakers that aren't covered by the score, like SPL, and the fact that multi-woofer floorstanders have some advantage in terms of room interactions. Also "w/sub" assumes not only perfect integration(which is non-trivial even with good tools), but flat response to 20hz. Not just any sub will do.
 

Ata

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Doesn't the SPL difference diminish as you add a perfect sub, as most of the energy is in the bass/subbass frequency? Ultimately, the twitter and some mid-woofer SPL may even be comparable.
 

abdo123

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Doesn't the SPL difference diminish as you add a perfect sub, as most of the energy is in the bass/subbass frequency? Ultimately, the twitter and some mid-woofer SPL may even be comparable.

the formula doesn't consider SPL difference.
 

Sancus

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Doesn't the SPL difference diminish as you add a perfect sub, as most of the energy is in the bass/subbass frequency? Ultimately, the twitter and some mid-woofer SPL may even be comparable.

To some extent yes, but mid/upper bass (100-500hz) still requires a large amount of energy and even a mid-sized(eg 8") woofer can show limitations there, let alone a small 5" or 6.5" one. All you have to do is look at 96dB distortion for M105 and 328Be, the M105 is very unhappy at 100-500hz and the 328 barely notices it is playing anything. For farfield listening a single, small woofer is never going to give you that real mid-bass slam, especially at 3-4m. And yes, 96dB is relevant -- even at an average of 77dB at listening position, I have some material that peaks as high as 107dB.
 

richard12511

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Doesn't the SPL difference diminish as you add a perfect sub, as most of the energy is in the bass/subbass frequency? Ultimately, the twitter and some mid-woofer SPL may even be comparable.
Yes, but the big towers will still have an output edge above 80-100Hz. Also the dedicated mid should IMD, which isn’t shown in measurements.
 

preload

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Hey, where is my "like" then? :)

Like like like like like like.

Don't keep us on the edge, please share what is this intuition borne of?

While it is obvious that score with sub will benefit smaller speakers more so than the larger ones, it is much less obvious that smaller speakers will overtake the large ones by such a convincing lead. Why would that happen, the larger boxes are more expensive, with better drivers, better bracing, more attention to design (?)... Is this a quirk in the preference score formulae?

Basically, all Revel speakers, from M105/M106 through the Salon's seem to have remarkably similar appearing spinoramas, with the major differences being in bass response and a bit of directivity error with the 2-way bookshelves. So if you compensate for the difference in bass response via the "w/sub" correction on the preference formula, the pref ratings should be pretty similar. And if the pref ratings are pretty similar, and there is a wide difference in $, then the correlation between $ and pref rating should be weak. I included "weakly positive" because I wanted to give Revel the benefit of the doubt.

But the REAL question now is, does an M105/M106/m126Be with a nice sub sound just as good as the Salon2? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "probably not," and suggest that the Salon2's sound noticeably and significantly better. And this exercise is just another confirmation that the predicted preference scores probably aren't great at differentiating "very good" speakers from excellent speakers. Of course, looking at the scatter diagram in the original AES paper, you could probably draw the same conclusion.
 

AudioJester

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What would be the crossover point / strategy for say the M106 and Rythmik 12 inch sub?
Wouldnt you have the advantage of being able to place sub/s in ideal location, compared to Salon2 by itself where low bass output location is fixed to test of speaker- talking real world in room scenario.
 

Ata

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Yes, but the big towers will still have an output edge above 80-100Hz. Also the dedicated mid should IMD, which isn’t shown in measurements.

Sorry, what was that about the IMD? I have not checked but my assumption is that both M106 and the Be speaker have one woofer and one tweeter.
 

Chromatischism

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What would be the crossover point / strategy for say the M106 and Rythmik 12 inch sub?
Wouldnt you have the advantage of being able to place sub/s in ideal location, compared to Salon2 by itself where low bass output location is fixed to test of speaker- talking real world in room scenario.
That's a good point. I guess the model assumes the sub response is perfect?
 

phoenixdogfan

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Like like like like like like.



Basically, all Revel speakers, from M105/M106 through the Salon's seem to have remarkably similar appearing spinoramas, with the major differences being in bass response and a bit of directivity error with the 2-way bookshelves. So if you compensate for the difference in bass response via the "w/sub" correction on the preference formula, the pref ratings should be pretty similar. And if the pref ratings are pretty similar, and there is a wide difference in $, then the correlation between $ and pref rating should be weak. I included "weakly positive" because I wanted to give Revel the benefit of the doubt.

But the REAL question now is, does an M105/M106/m126Be with a nice sub sound just as good as the Salon2? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "probably not," and suggest that the Salon2's sound noticeably and significantly better. And this exercise is just another confirmation that the predicted preference scores probably aren't great at differentiating "very good" speakers from excellent speakers. Of course, looking at the scatter diagram in the original AES paper, you could probably draw the same conclusion.
Probably because the preference score calculation does not take into account dynamic range and the ability to play at louder volume.

That ability won't mean a lot if the speaker is spraying crap into the ionosphere, but will mean a very great deal if it's able to play at higher volumes with the same attributes that earn these small signal designs their high preference scores.
 

Ra1zel

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Dear experts,:)
Would you kindly consider a slight deviation from the specified by the OP subject:
Which passive sensitive (let us say, over 92 dB) speakers are known to have the best spinorama measurements?;)
Please chime in!:)
I would be surprised if there existed something that beats Perlisten S7t that also satisfies those terms, add subwoofers and you have one of the very best systems in the world if done properly.

Also I think two incoming speakers, GGNTKT M3 and Gradient R-5A have a shot at best spinorama yet.
 

TheInquiring

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Thank you very kindly @Ra1zel for the info!
GGNTKT M3 and Gradient R-5A have a shot at best spinorama yet
Would be very interesting to see the data...;)
Do you think we can expect good spinorama measurements from passive OB designs like, for example, X4 Premium? Has anybody had a chance to audition them at Capital Audiofest (room 526), please?:)
 

phoenixdogfan

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I would be surprised if there existed something that beats Perlisten S7t that also satisfies those terms, add subwoofers and you have one of the very best systems in the world if done properly.

Also I think two incoming speakers, GGNTKT M3 and Gradient R-5A have a shot at best spinorama yet.
I think you mean the M1's, and hopefully either Amir or Erin will get these in house. The M1's seem like a real bargain if you can live without that last half of the bottom octave.
 
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