• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Should hard drugs be decriminalized and then supply pharmaceutical grade drugs to users.

Status
Not open for further replies.

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
So what? The veracity of an argument, especially one about a macroeconomic/legal policy, is derived of its epistemology and empirical value. The identify of the person making it is rarely interesting. Obviously drug laws impact more in deprived communities for a whole host of reasons, and their history in the US in particular is highly racialised, but none of this makes the identify of a person relevant in a reasoned discussion. It would have sufficed to say ‘I don’t agree with you for xyz reasons’.
I don’t agree with you. Cultural biases are a large part of how we frame our worldview. Take these tests to find out. Also, do you really believe that legal policy has been developed with no cultural bias? The evidence points to the fact that the laws have been written and amended to protect the rich. How else can the Sackler family get away with no gaol time for their crimes but there be so many people of colour in prison for the possession of cannabis?
 

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,328
Likes
5,220
Location
Nashville
The drug laws are not about oppression. I think they could use plenty of change, but the laws in place aren't due to anyone intending to oppress other groups.
Huh?! The federal marajuana laws came directly out of the resentment white Texans had for Mexican immigrants making an economic killing importing pot from south of the border during the great depression. Laws against the possession of crack cocaine are harsher than for possession of the powder. Care to offer a theory why?
 

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
Shocking isn’t it. Just under 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and the US and coalition partners invaded a country. The Sacklers participated in the deaths of 600,000 Americans and get away with a fine. Worse still, they get to pay the fine over ten years. The interest on their remaining capital will pay it off!
 
Last edited:

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,706
Likes
37,443
They were put in place by people intending to control marginal groups that they believed were prone to criminal behavior. Poor immigrants in the early part of the 20th century; then young black urban males after the Great Migration from the southern states to northern cities.
B.....S.........
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,706
Likes
37,443
Huh?! The federal marajuana laws came directly out of the resentment white Texans had for Mexican immigrants making an economic killing importing pot from south of the border during the great depression. Laws against the possession of crack cocaine are harsher than for possession of the powder. Care to offer a theory why?
Because smoking cocaine, which is how crack is normally ingested, creates a shorter and more intense response. It makes it more addictive. More highly addicted people are more likely to cause problems such as theft to support a habit they can't afford. More addictive substances are capable of being more profitable to those who supply them. So that is why the laws differ because the two substances have different effects.

Now it is true one could smoke powdered concaine and it too has stronger more intense effects. But for whatever reason one is normally smoked and one is normally snorted.
 
OP
Doodski

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
21,543
Likes
21,832
Location
Canada
Huh?! The federal marajuana laws came directly out of the resentment white Texans had for Mexican immigrants making an economic killing importing pot from south of the border during the great depression. Laws against the possession of crack cocaine are harsher than for possession of the powder. Care to offer a theory why?
Cocaine needs to be mixed with baking soda and water then heated up in water to create a salt I think it is that vaporizes when heated up. That's crack and that's one of two methods of making the crack form of cocaine. The other method requires more chemistry and smells bad when making it. The high from a hoot lasts about 20 minutes. Crack cocaine is so addictive that a evening of smoking it will get a person dreaming of more and yearning for it for days. A serious crack binge can last for maybe 2-3+ days without sleep and then the person is getting pretty tired and can damage their heart too because their heart beat is very high when high on crack. It's that powerful and good as a drug. Down and durty method is to mix a drop of water with equal parts cocaine and baking soda on tin foil and letting it dry and then heating the bottom of the foil with a lighter and inhaling the vapour. It's fast to make, gives a good hoot and a decent high for maybe ~10 minutes. Cocaine is far less addictive and the high is nowhere close to crack. So crack has a far worse reputation accordingly. My best advice is avoid tweakers. A tweaker is a person that smokes a large amount and gets really tweaked. They sometimes are desperate for money and due to the nature of the crack high people become aggressive and do things they probably would not do otherwise. The social disorder caused by crack is one reason why it is considered worse than cocaine.
 
Last edited:

phoenixdogfan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
3,328
Likes
5,220
Location
Nashville
Shocking isn’t it. Just under 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and the US and coalition partners invaded a country. The Sacklers participated in the deaths of 600,000 Americans and get away with a fine. Worse still, they get to pay the fine over ten years. The interest on their remaining capital will pay it off!
We could go on and on regarding the disparities in the ways laws are made and justice is administered, but all that's going to do is ra
I’m not sure that will happen anytime soon in the US. Drug laws are much too useful in oppressing certain groups of people in enough States to make it a non-starter.
Especially since felony convictions can be used to limit the franchise! Moreover, the thirteenth amendment abolishes slavery for everything except convict labor, and that unpaid convict labor makes billions for corporations the CCA which contribute and lobby lawmakers lavishly.
 

Phorize

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
1,539
Likes
2,071
Location
U.K
I don’t agree with you. Cultural biases are a large part of how we frame our worldview. Take these tests to find out. Also, do you really believe that legal policy has been developed with no cultural bias? The evidence points to the fact that the laws have been written and amended to protect the rich. How else can the Sackler family get away with no gaol time for their crimes but there be so many people of colour in prison for the possession of cannabis?
We could unpack this but I’m going to suggest that we all cool it now as we are plainly in political territory. My feeling is that we’d end up broadly agreeing on the issues, having started from different axioms.
 

JRS

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
1,158
Likes
1,006
Location
Albuquerque, NM USA
Cocaine needs to be mixed with baking soda and water then heated up in water to create a salt I think it is that vaporizes when heated up. That's crack and that's one of two methods of making the crack form of cocaine. The other method requires more chemistry and smells bad when making it. The high from a hoot lasts about 20 minutes. Crack cocaine is so addictive that a evening of smoking it will get a person dreaming of more and yearning for it for days. A serious crack binge can last for maybe 2-3+ days without sleep and then the person is getting pretty tired and can damage their heart too because their heart beat is very high when high on crack. It's that powerful and good as a drug. Down and durty method is to mix a drop of water with equal parts cocaine and baking soda on tin foil and letting it dry and then heating the bottom of the foil with a lighter and inhaling the vapour. It's fast to make, gives a good hoot and a decent high for maybe ~10 minutes. Cocaine is far less addictive and the high is nowhere close to crack. So crack has a far worse reputation accordingly. My best advice is avoid tweakers. A tweaker is a person that smokes a large amount and gets really tweaked. They sometimes are desperate for money and due to the nature of the crack high people become aggressive and do things they probably would not do otherwise. The social disorder caused by crack is one reason why it is considered worse than cocaine.
I disagree with part of this. AFAIK all studies have linked addictive potential to both the rapidity of onset, and the rapidity of offset. This is amply demonstrated by drugs in the same class such as opiates operating on the same receptor, and therefore which share the same mechanism of action. All the "safer" forms of opiates used for maintenance replacement are long acting, e.g. methadone and buprenorphine. But your point is well taken: methamphetamine has largely (but not completely) supplanted cocaine as the stimulant of choice. There are two main reasons: users are no so different than any other consumers: convenience and cost matter a great deal, and meth rules: $100 dollars might buy a two day supply vs an afternoon's.

Secondly, methamphetamine can be synthesized from what used to be easily available industrial/medical supplies and factories will pop up where ever laws are sufficiently lax and corruption is high. Contrast that with coca leaves which are grown in a relatively circumscribed ecosphere and typically need to pass through several ports before landing in the states, and where the grower countries can be easily coerced by the USA into containment measures.

While double blind tests reveal that the effects are difficult if not impossible to discern by the most experienced of users (except insofar as one wears off within minutes to a couple of hours at most vs 4 to 6, most stimulant fans express a preference for the high of cocaine, citing some of the same ineffable reasons that vinyl lovers prefer PVC to polycarbonate. Unfortunately, fentanyl is characterized by a quick off and low cost (to manufacturers), which makes the drug devilishly difficult to control due to high demand and large supply.
 
Last edited:
OP
Doodski

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
21,543
Likes
21,832
Location
Canada
methamphetamine has largely (but not completely) supplanted cocaine as the stimulant of choice. There are two main reasons: users are no so different than any other consumers: convenience and cost matter a great deal, and meth rules: $100 dollars might buy a two day supply vs an afternoon's.
Yes, we have that going on here too. The coppers are saying that the amount of meth files they handle compared to the previous year and the year before is much higher. Apparently users also fear fentanyl in the coke is what a meth dealer that talked to me in the pub told me. He told me he won't deal coke because of the fentanyl in it now and he does not want too be responsible for ODs; said the people distributing coke are not nice people and one is best served staying away from them. He said he can tell if meth is pure by the color and the crystals. It boggled my mind that coke distributors can be less nice than meth dealers. :facepalm:
 
  • Like
Reactions: JRS

JRS

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
1,158
Likes
1,006
Location
Albuquerque, NM USA
<snip>
Now it is true one could smoke powdered concaine and it too has stronger more intense effects. But for whatever reason one is normally smoked and one is normally snorted.
Not so much. The problem with the naturally occurring cocaine--HCl (cocaine hydrochloride) salt is it has a much higher melting point 200C vs 100C and is easily pyrolyzed when heating to the higher temperature--in other words it's a somewhat fragile molecule that does better with gentle heating at temps well below those that potentially destroy it. I suspect a vaping device would allow the kind of precise temperature control to allow smoking vaping, but that's only part of a larger more interesting story.

When the cocaine hydrochloride is mixed with a base (whether baking soda or ammonia), the cocaine is converted from it's ionic form (the amine group is normally protonated at body pH existing as NH4+ vs the neutral NH3 amino group). This is what happens whether making the "poor mans" crack or the much more refined, pure and dangerous "free base" version. The reason this is critical is that ionic (charged) compounds are lipophobic and poorly penetrate lipid bilayers such as those found around cells, and what protects the brain from many potentially toxic compounds known as the blood-brain barrier. Through chemical neutralization the cocaine now eagerly enters the brain and produces a much more intense high. The same strategy was known to tobacco companies who are not just guilty of adding nicotine to their filthy wares, but also freebasing the nicotine to produce a more intense effect.

The same applies to all the alkaloid drugs, and is why some benzodiazapenes produce much faster effects owing to increased lipid solubility ( e.g xanax vs klonipin).
 

JRS

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
1,158
Likes
1,006
Location
Albuquerque, NM USA
Yes, we have that going on here too. The coppers are saying that the amount of meth files they handle compared to the previous year and the year before is much higher. Apparently users also fear fentanyl in the coke is what a meth dealer that talked to me in the pub told me. He told me he won't deal coke because of the fentanyl in it now and he does not want too be responsible for ODs; said the people distributing coke are not nice people and one is best served staying away from them. He said he can tell if meth is pure by the color and the crystals. It boggled my mind that coke distributors can be less nice than meth dealers. :facepalm:
Fucking fentanyl is a plague--it is now showing up even in fake Xanny bars. WTF. You want a nice few hour alcohol like buzz and end up with an opiate blitz, with 10x worse withdrawal symptoms. If I could buy futures, I'd be looking at pocket sized fetanyl detectors.

I have known many drug users and almost w/o exception rate the "speed ball" as the most euphoric feeling known to man-that is a opiate/stimulant combo. By lacing meth with fetanyl, you have some addictive shit--at least meth for its many shortcomings does not produce physical dependence.

Interesting about it being obvious to a trained eye--the meth users I know either aren't discerning enough to know the difference, are simply too impatient to find the real deal, or simply don't mind. When one is on the street and in need of quick chemical oblivion, who cares, right?
 

mansr

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
4,685
Likes
10,703
Location
Hampshire
Interesting about it being obvious to a trained eye--the meth users I know either aren't discerning enough to know the difference, are simply too impatient to find the real deal, or simply don't mind. When one is on the street and in need of quick chemical oblivion, who cares, right?
"We're making poison for people who don't care." -- Jesse on Breaking Bad when Walt worries about purity
 

JRS

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
1,158
Likes
1,006
Location
Albuquerque, NM USA
Living in ABQ, a most entertaining series. My nephew (a former meth cook trained in Oklahoma) used to joke about setting up shop on his 1 acre POS parcel of land out on the mesa. I would have been Walt, and he Jessie.
 
Last edited:

preload

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
1,559
Likes
1,703
Location
California
So what? The veracity of an argument, especially one about a macroeconomic/legal policy, is derived of its epistemology and empirical value. The identify of the person making it is rarely interesting. Obviously drug laws impact more in deprived communities for a whole host of reasons, and their history in the US in particular is highly racialised, but none of this makes the identify of a person relevant in a reasoned discussion. It would have sufficed to say ‘I don’t agree with you for xyz reasons’.

Thank you for adding your support of @KCEname’s assertion, which was my intent as well. The fact that you responded with an affirmation is consistent with the type of follow up I was hoping to generate.

Not everything is a formal debate. And a quick glance at this thread by anyone who does not have multiple substances appearing on their toxicology report can confirm this.
 
Last edited:

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
Shocking isn’t it. Just under 3000 people died in the 9/11 attacks and the US and coalition partners invaded a country. The Sacklers participated in the deaths of 600,000 Americans and get away with a fine. Worse still, they get to pay the fine over ten years. The interest on their remaining capital will pay it off!
Mundipharma, owned by the Sackler family, are actively using the same techniques that have caused the opioid crisis in the US in countries around the world. They will continue to profit from addiction with only financial penalties (eventually, if ever internationally) to be paid under favourable circumstances.
 

HiFidFan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
723
Likes
906
Location
U.S.A
Sure, right after the Sacklers are put in prison for life and all their holding are seized and liquidated, funds used for Opioid rehab.

Why there are no Nuremberg style trials for these mass murderers is beyond the pale.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,270
Likes
7,701
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Drug misuse is a medical issue. The only reason to make it illegal is to criminalize particular groups of people based on patterns of drug use, or to misuse the criminal system to ostracize individuals they dislike, but have no just legal cause to incarcerate. If this issue is treated as a medical issue, then there is no cause for a black market. I imagine that the black market needs for the drugs to be illegal in order to have a market for their products.
 

caught gesture

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
459
Likes
1,023
Location
Italia
Drug misuse is a medical issue. The only reason to make it illegal is to criminalize particular groups of people based on patterns of drug use, or to misuse the criminal system to ostracize individuals they dislike, but have no just legal cause to incarcerate. If this issue is treated as a medical issue, then there is no cause for a black market. I imagine that the black market needs for the drugs to be illegal in order to have a market for their products.
You might find both the book link and the video interesting. At least some food for thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JRS
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom