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Hegel H95 Review (Streaming Amplifier)

Chromatischism

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I love to stop early but every time I have attempted that I get asked to test the rest. And then defenders of the product claim I only tested one or two things. To avoid all this, I spent a long time testing all these subsystems.
I think testing it all so we have the data is the right choice. Props for carrying on!
 

aliqaz

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Further commentary from Scnieder including comments re ASR and Amir

" From what we can tell, the measurements there try to assess the H95 almost as if it is a standalone DAC. But it's not a standalone DAC -- it's an integrated amplifier with a DAC. Also, it assumes that the line outputs mean it's a preamplifier -- but they're really line outputs that *could* be to use it as a preamplifier, but some people are saying it's to attach a sub or output a signal to something else. Nevertheless, what appears to have happened there is that in treating it like a standalone DAC, the measurer put the volume up to 2V, which resulted in the output from the line outputs clipping, so it was distorting. Now some could argue that they'd like to see it output 2V, which is valid in some ways. But the fact of the matter is that the measurer should've realized that it was distorting and start experimenting at lower levels and simply reporting the behaviors to give readers more complete information. Also, the measurer should've really been looking at its behavior in the context of what the product is -- an integrated amp. Why they got such poor linearity AND jitter measurements, however, we don't understand. For us, the jitter immunity was excellent and the deviation from linearity respectable given the DAC architecture."

" If you want kind of our overriding view, it's this insofar as consumers go -- use the H95 within its rated power (60WPc) and don't drive speakers less than 4 ohms with it. For us, those are the biggest takeaways from the measurements. The stuff that ASR dwelled on, when you look at it in the context of an integrated amplifier, not a standalone DAC, they missed the point."

" BTW, one thing to remember about Amir's history in publishing was that he was one of the founder's of WhatsBestForum.com, which is a forum based on promoting the most expensive equipment possible using purely subjective methods. They have promoted some of the most nonsensical ideas for years -- as well as promoted some of the most expensive gear in the industry. He departed from there some time ago, I understand, and started AudioScienceReview.com. I don't know what the goal this time is, but he seems to have swung in the opposite direction using measurements as a club and trying to tear companies down. It seems that whatever he does -- the outright lunacy of WhatsBestForum.com to the "subjectivized" objective take of AudioScienceReview.com -- it appears to be just for show. I'd take most of it with a grain of salt. Though that's only my opinion -- everyone should draw their own conclusions. I withdrew my account from AudioScienceReview.com a long time ago and asked that all my posts be removed from that forum because I didn't want to be associated with the ideas being promoted there, such as the "gotcha" attitude I outlined above."

" I would hope so. If someone wants to take a truly objective approach, do some investigation and digging in. BTW, one approach that's promoted there that has NO basis in science or the research that's been done in hi-fi is the use of measurements to listen. I can't believe that's going on there -- it's one of the reasons I wanted no association with that forum (when ASR was being created, Amir emailed me several times to contribute, because of my experience with speaker measurements). But what's being trumpeted as "science" in that regard is nonsense again. I made a video about it.
"
 

Raindog123

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Stating obvious… But everyone (especially the ASR newcomers) have to realize that in an ASR product review - like this one of a H95 - three things happen in parallel: (1) a H95 ’quick look’ review, (2) comparison of the H95 with previously-measured amplifiers, and (3) a ‘general discussion/opinion‘ (in a form of the thread comments).

The folks “vested“ in the product - the company reps, device owners, brand devotees - for obvious reasons are interested in (1). And would like to see more details - from all angles and emphasizing positive… Meanwhile, the main goal of Amir/ASR is to get through (2) - by now, a rather well-established set of comparison metrics - neither meant to be comprehensive nor tailored to the specifics of one particular device… And while the comments (3) are meant to be a more [objective, technical] in-depth discussion of both the product and measurement methodology - as the discussion is carried by us humans, it clearly contains “opinions“ across whole spectrum of accuracy, objectiveness, and offensiveness. So needs to be treated as such, by everyone - both the fort attackers and defenders. :)
 

solderdude

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Geert

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Further commentary from Scnieder including comments re ASR and Amir

" Also, it assumes that the line outputs mean it's a preamplifier -- but they're really line outputs that *could* be to use it as a preamplifier, but some people are saying it's to attach a sub or output a signal to something else. "
From the H95 manual:
Screenshot_20211127_193031.jpg
 

Purité Audio

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Doug protecting his revenue stream, it’s the number one priority.
Keith
 

Geert

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as the discussion is carried by us humans, it clearly contains “opinions“ across whole spectrum of accuracy, objectiveness, and offensiveness. So needs to be treated as such, by everyone - both the fort attackers and defenders. :)
... and the impartial.
 

thyristor

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First of all thank you for taking the time to measure the H95. Immediately upon seeing the measurements we realized that something was very different to our own. We could not recognize ourselves in the results or in the conclusion.

In this thread there are also concerns about the layout of the mainboard and the lack of signal hygiene.

For example what is the reason that the transistors are at the front of the board and the speaker outputs at the back?
 

AdamG

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Further commentary from Scnieder including comments re ASR and Amir

" From what we can tell, the measurements there try to assess the H95 almost as if it is a standalone DAC. But it's not a standalone DAC -- it's an integrated amplifier with a DAC. Also, it assumes that the line outputs mean it's a preamplifier -- but they're really line outputs that *could* be to use it as a preamplifier, but some people are saying it's to attach a sub or output a signal to something else. Nevertheless, what appears to have happened there is that in treating it like a standalone DAC, the measurer put the volume up to 2V, which resulted in the output from the line outputs clipping, so it was distorting. Now some could argue that they'd like to see it output 2V, which is valid in some ways. But the fact of the matter is that the measurer should've realized that it was distorting and start experimenting at lower levels and simply reporting the behaviors to give readers more complete information. Also, the measurer should've really been looking at its behavior in the context of what the product is -- an integrated amp. Why they got such poor linearity AND jitter measurements, however, we don't understand. For us, the jitter immunity was excellent and the deviation from linearity respectable given the DAC architecture."

" If you want kind of our overriding view, it's this insofar as consumers go -- use the H95 within its rated power (60WPc) and don't drive speakers less than 4 ohms with it. For us, those are the biggest takeaways from the measurements. The stuff that ASR dwelled on, when you look at it in the context of an integrated amplifier, not a standalone DAC, they missed the point."

" BTW, one thing to remember about Amir's history in publishing was that he was one of the founder's of WhatsBestForum.com, which is a forum based on promoting the most expensive equipment possible using purely subjective methods. They have promoted some of the most nonsensical ideas for years -- as well as promoted some of the most expensive gear in the industry. He departed from there some time ago, I understand, and started AudioScienceReview.com. I don't know what the goal this time is, but he seems to have swung in the opposite direction using measurements as a club and trying to tear companies down. It seems that whatever he does -- the outright lunacy of WhatsBestForum.com to the "subjectivized" objective take of AudioScienceReview.com -- it appears to be just for show. I'd take most of it with a grain of salt. Though that's only my opinion -- everyone should draw their own conclusions. I withdrew my account from AudioScienceReview.com a long time ago and asked that all my posts be removed from that forum because I didn't want to be associated with the ideas being promoted there, such as the "gotcha" attitude I outlined above."

" I would hope so. If someone wants to take a truly objective approach, do some investigation and digging in. BTW, one approach that's promoted there that has NO basis in science or the research that's been done in hi-fi is the use of measurements to listen. I can't believe that's going on there -- it's one of the reasons I wanted no association with that forum (when ASR was being created, Amir emailed me several times to contribute, because of my experience with speaker measurements). But what's being trumpeted as "science" in that regard is nonsense again. I made a video about it.
"
One Question you should seek to answer. It’s of the upmost importance, as it directly relates to Honesty and how monetization filter's product review content and conclusions. How much did he get paid for his review?

FYI: Amir and ASR got paid Zero, nada, nothing, zilch. No advertising, no sponsorships, no bullshit review results.
 
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amirm

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Same distortion, same difference in mains hum between the channels.
That's reassuring to see. I kept worrying that this was specific to my system/measurement. So there seems to be some source of mains leakage internally to the amplifier in that one channel.
 
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amirm

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Until Amir decides to standardize his test procedures this kind of thing will (and does) keep happening.
Anyone who claims that the tests for amplifiers, as they stand, are valid need only to look at this 600 plus mess of responses about an obviously mediocre product which is actually better than it appears to be and mostly in line with the manufacturers claimed specifications. Could we be any more excitable? Geesh.
As noted, I run the same tests I always do, including said DAC test on countless AVRs and AVPs. Nothing new here other than folks asking that I run a non-standard test for this one amplifier.

As to number of responses, it is natural given the expense and reputation of the product online, and company's statement on their website, and measurements not matching them.

As to being better than it is, that has not been shown at all. Indeed company said that the amplifier measurements agree with theirs. Those measurements put the amp in the middle of the pack with low power output. This is nothing you pay $2000 for.
 
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amirm

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Just Stop.
If you are going to quote someone, spell their name correctly. If you are are going to reference objectivity, don’t link to a video about subjectivity. Do you have an opinion of your own, aliqaz, or are you just here to post someone else’s opinion?
Stop? No, he should continue. Those of us who are not facebook like to see what is being said behind our backs so that we can act on anything that is actionable. And that video is of the author whose opinion was quoted. So definitely relevant.

So it is clear, Doug stormed out of here because he kept telling us speaker measurements are too difficult to read and so should not be used to judge speaker. Never mind that they post them. Those measurements are contracted out to NRC and he seemingly doesn't a) understand how to interpret them and b) are incomplete compared to what we run and what the standard specifies.
 

pma

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That's reassuring to see. I kept worrying that this was specific to my system/measurement. So there seems to be some source of mains leakage internally to the amplifier in that one channel.
IMO it is the PCB layout problem. Too big area between speaker wires and different in both channels. Also a non-symmetry to radiated fields. See the speaker output coils, one is close to transformers.
FA6E8ADE-0D69-4654-BA50-2A32FD8FAB97.jpeg
 
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amirm

amirm

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I want to make sure we don't lose the plot here. So much attention is put on the DAC output but there is a real, undisputed problem with the amplifier. Here is how it performs using analog input:

index.php


Here is how it performs when you switch the analog input to digital, with nothing else changed:

index.php


We lose 8 dB of performance in the form of raised noise floor due to using the internal DAC.

In other words, if the amplifier used precisely as they intend, either with analog input or digital, the digital input takes a major toll on performance in noise department which is far more audible than distortion. This of course impacts streaming to the amplifier just as well.

Company has confirmed the amplifier measurements so what we have is the final word.

I showed the reason for above in my IMD measurements, showing the high noise floor:

index.php


So the DAC measurements were definitely investigative and proved the high noise floor of the internal DAC.

For an integrated amplifier and streamer, this is unacceptable. I, and I am sure many others consider digital input to be "cleaner" due to analog path being very short internally, and gains optimized. Yet we have the opposite here.

The job was not hard. All the DAC had to do was be 10 dB better than the amp. Then it would have 0.5 dB impact on its SINAD.

Conclusions
Measuring Hegel H95 as intended, i.e. with analog or digital input producing just 5 watts, produces far more noise with digital input than analog. This is a bad thing in even mass market products. It is really, really bad in the case of a premium product.

I hope Hegel looks at sources of this performance loss with digital input and remedies it. Had it not shown this problem, it would have gotten an acceptable review from me.
 

Eetu

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Everett T

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From the list you quoted you can see that all the Hegels tested are in the green 'tier 2' and that the best measuring Hegel, the H20 was the 105th best amp. So based on that single metric (SINAD) they do not measure 'extremely well'.
I didn't mean to imply near perfect, sorry if my comment was taken that way. They measure "very good", regardless of the tier, as we know what poor and bad look like...
 

Gurkerl

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Let me preface my question by saying I would not buy this product at 2000€, due to lack of features I would appreciate in such a product, namely higher output power, crossover settings for subwoofer outputs, some sort of room "correction" feature, and maybe pre outs. For 2000€ I would also expect a "Made in Norway" label (regardless how "gimmicky" such a label is)

My question with regards to the measurements: assuming the power output capabilities of this amplifier are enough for the speakers at hand (+ enough desired headroom), would this amp be audibly different from one that measures well by this forum's standards? We are still at 70db SINAD in the worst cases, which is less than most speakers at any volume. Frequency response is flat, distortion in different frequencies is behaved well enough.
To put it simple: would this amplifier actually sound different than others?
 

Doodski

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Nevertheless, Feel free to share this post and, also, look to our measurements, which are much more comprehensive than elsewhere. Our goal is to simply produce plentiful, unbiased measurements, letting the cards fall where they will.
I looked and searched and found no measurements. I did find a subjective review.
 

Eetu

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I didn't mean to imply near perfect, sorry if my comment was taken that way. They measure "very good", regardless of the tier, as we know what poor and bad look like...
Yes, I agree. It was the DAC and line out issues that were problematic not the amp itself.
 
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