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Can you sell DIY in your country? Is it legal?

DanielT

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Then I do not mean if it is possible to find a buyer but if it is legal.

For example in Sweden, as far as I know, it is forbidden to sell DIY tube amplifiers to private individuals BUT if I owned a DIY tube amplifier, which I did not build, I have the right to sell it. This only applies to those who have built, DIY tube amp which the law covers.

What does it look like in your country? Is it legal to sell DIY?
 
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tomtoo

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No. And i think its good like it is. Selling high voltage equipment from someone that maybe knows what he does or maybe not, is somehow dangerous.
If you have the right education on paper, you can do this. Without not.
 

anmpr1

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Then I do not mean if it is possible to find a buyer but if it is legal.

For example in Sweden, as far as I know, it is forbidden to sell DIY tube amplifiers to private individuals BUT if I owned a DIY tube amplifier, which I did not build, I have the right to sell it. This only applies to those who have built, DIY tube amp which the law covers.

What does it look like in your country? Is it legal to sell DIY?
I know that when dealing with laws, sometimes it is ridiculous to ask , "why". But why is it against the law to sell something you built? Are you talking about one-offs, selling something you made in your garage for fun, or making more than one as a hobby, and trying to run a small business?

Here in the US, as far as I know, it's OK to sell something you've made to another private individual. You can't run a small business without a license, though. Taxes and all that...
 

Colonel7

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Then I do not mean if it is possible to find a buyer but if it is legal.

For example in Sweden, as far as I know, it is forbidden to sell DIY tube amplifiers to private individuals BUT if I owned a DIY tube amplifier, which I did not build, I have the right to sell it. This only applies to those who have built, DIY tube amp which the law covers.

What does it look like in your country? Is it legal to sell DIY?
You should edit the thread title to specify amplifiers (and preamps?) if that is the DIY you're speaking about. There's tons of other DIY like passive speakers and streamers.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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I'm not entirely sure that's true. What I mentioned in the post above.

I think it has to do with the fact that a tube power amplifier has the potential to take the lives of people. For example if you are going to set the bias with a multimeter and a screwdriver. You can (if you are not careful) at least get one into hell's strong kiss then.

Thus, it should actually be CE marking on a tube power amp.


That DIY and buyers then completely. not giving an fu...in that law is another matter.:)

See attached picture, set Bias in a DIY tube amp.
 

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Doodski

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Then I do not mean if it is possible to find a buyer but if it is legal.

For example in Sweden, as far as I know, it is forbidden to sell DIY tube amplifiers to private individuals BUT if I owned a DIY tube amplifier, which I did not build, I have the right to sell it. This only applies to those who have built, DIY tube amp which the law covers.

What does it look like in your country? Is it legal to sell DIY?
There is the Canadian Electrical Code but the regulation falls on the provinces in Canada and so the electrical requirements and certifications are different in each province. So it's complicated.

In The Province of Alberta.>
"The Alberta Electrical Code Regulations requires that all electronic and electrical products and devices are allowed to be placed on the market if they are compliant with the Canadian Electrical Code."

As well there are RF rules and regulations to prevent spill over into RF bands that are allocated for use.

Then there is the federal rule.>
"UL (Underwriters Laboratories) or CSA (Canadian Standards Association) certification is required for any electrical product sold in the USA and/or Canada that plugs into an AC electrical outlet. Products running on only batteries with no recharging capabilities do not require UL/CSA certification. However, most retail chains and/or product liability insurance companies will require UL/CSA certification for any electronic product."

Also there are paints and plastic regulations to prevent poisoning of children and so forth.

NOTE: Myself if I made a regulated power supply for somebody or modified something during a repair it is then marked as, "For test purposes only."

That way I am not libel.
 

Bob from Florida

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I'm not entirely sure that's true. What I mentioned in the post above.

I think it has to do with the fact that a tube power amplifier has the potential to take the lives of people. For example if you are going to set the bias with a multimeter and a screwdriver. You can (if you are not careful) at least get one into hell's strong kiss then.

Thus, it should actually be CE marking on a tube power amp.


That DIY and buyers then completely. not giving an fu...in that law is another matter.:)

See attached picture, set Bias in a DIY tube amp.
Horrible example of a design that allows for bias adjustment. That design probably has a disclaimer for no user serviceable parts - technicians only. A tube amp with adjustable bias needs an onboard meter or pin jacks for an external meter with a chassis mount bias pot. The last high power guitar amp I built had pin jacks - easy to access - and 10 turn chassis mount pots - each output tube - for precision bias setting. All the other tube based guitar amps I built had cathode resistor bias - self bias - and avoided the user intervention issues.
I have worked on amps with an arrangement like the pic and have always considered those design choices bogus and unsafe.
 

anmpr1

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In the early days of hi-fi, people pretty much built what they listened to. I don't know about Europe, but tens of thousands of tube amp kits were sold in the US (Dyna, Eico, Scott, HK, even McIntosh). I never heard of anyone blowing themselves up building a kit. Maybe it happened. Is there any real difference in danger, building a tube kit as opposed to a high powered SS amp? In the early days of SS, you could buy high powered transistor kits. I think most of that came to an end around the late '70s. By the mid '80s kits were not common at all.

I don't think it was simply safety. One reason you don't see many kits is that it's so much cheaper to have something stamped out at a factory in Shenzhen, than it is to put all the parts in a bag and sell them over the counter. Also, what do people want, these days? How can you build a 7.1 home theater receiver with Dolby Digital in your basement?

In the early days of hi-fi, kits were actually cheaper than factory built (which were also usually hand soldered and screwed together).

Also, while we at ASR might think that building an amp is 'fun', not many people think that, today.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Horrible example of a design that allows for bias adjustment. That design probably has a disclaimer for no user serviceable parts - technicians only. A tube amp with adjustable bias needs an onboard meter or pin jacks for an external meter with a chassis mount bias pot. The last high power guitar amp I built had pin jacks - easy to access - and 10 turn chassis mount pots - each output tube - for precision bias setting. All the other tube based guitar amps I built had cathode resistor bias - self bias - and avoided the user intervention issues.
I have worked on amps with an arrangement like the pic and have always considered those design choices bogus and unsafe.
It was probably not the intention that it should be sold, tube amp in the picture, but more an instruction in case any fool would borrow it for a while.

Tube amp you should know what it's about. Otherwise you should not to buy a DIY tube amp, that is.

I do not build a DIY tube amp because I do not have sufficient knowledge. No direct interest either. On the other hand, I am thinking of DIY a pre amplifier with OP amp ne5532 which is powered by batteries. But it's like nothing. A few resistors and capacitors only. A try on DIY project. Mostly for fun and learn a little about how OP amps work. I can then sell that DIY pre amp in Sweden (I have not intended to do that), but then, as I said, it would be a pre amp powerd with only a few batteries. :)

Yes, that tube amplifier worked. Spread tube light with its EL34 tubes.:)
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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In the early days of hi-fi, people pretty much built what they listened to. I don't know about Europe, but tens of thousands of tube amp kits were sold in the US (Dyna, Eico, Scott, HK, even McIntosh). I never heard of anyone blowing themselves up building a kit. Maybe it happened. Is there any real difference in danger, building a tube kit as opposed to a high powered SS amp? In the early days of SS, you could buy high powered transistor kits. I think most of that came to an end around the late '70s. By the mid '80s kits were not common at all.

I don't think it was simply safety. One reason you don't see many kits is that it's so much cheaper to have something stamped out at a factory in Shenzhen, than it is to put all the parts in a bag and sell them over the counter. Also, what do people want, these days? How can you build a 7.1 home theater receiver with Dolby Digital in your basement?

In the early days of hi-fi, kits were actually cheaper than factory built (which were also usually hand soldered and screwed together).

Also, while we at ASR might think that building an amp is 'fun', not many people think that, today.
Hm how dangerous a tube amp can be depends partly on the construction and partly on the effect in them, namely how much current is involved. The kits you are talking about were perhaps well constructed from a safety point of view and partly weak in power?

DIY is probably the most done nowadays because it's fun. I DIY some simple stuff myself for that reason. See my previous post. Wait I post video about that design: :)

 

tomtoo

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Hm how dangerous a tube amp can be depends partly on the construction and partly on the effect in them, namely how much current is involved. The kits you are talking about were perhaps well constructed from a safety point of view and partly weak in power?

DIY is probably the most done nowadays because it's fun. I DIY some simple stuff myself for that reason. See my previous post. Wait I post video about that design: :)



".....Also, while we at ASR might think that building an amp is 'fun', not many people think that, today.
Click to expand...Hm how dangerous a tube amp can be depends partly on the construction and partly on the effect in them, namely how much current is involved....."

Sry but thats wrong. Its right that the current kills you, but the current that flows trough your body. And the current that flows trough you body depends highly on the voltage. Its not that easy to explain. But if the current is not limitet by the inherent power source resistence, the current gets limited by your body resistance. And depending on the situation could be not high enough that 50V can kill you. And 400v much more easy.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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Sry but thats wrong. Its right that the current kills you, but the current that flows trough your body. And the current that flows trough you body depends highly on the voltage. Its not that easy to explain. But if the current is not limitet by the inherent power source resistence, the current gets limited by your body resistance. And depending on the situation could be not high enough that 50V can kill you. And 400v much more easy.
Aha aha, thanks tomtoo for the explanation. :)

Then I have it in my head that they say that it is worse to get a shock through the left arm than the right. Proximity to the heart. Do not know if it's true.

Have faint memories from school that it was illustrated with streams. Size, amount of water and speed of water, volume moved. Damn I forgot this. Embarrassing, this is what you learn in primary school (year 9 in school). It's probably damn best to know if I'm going to make that DIY pre amp to work. I throw in a little Ohm's law too. Then maybe there will be some speed on that pre amp. :pHe he
 
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tomtoo

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Aha aha, thanks tomtoo for the explanation. :)

Then I have it in my head that they say that it is worse to get a shock through the left arm than the right. Proximity to the heart. Do not know if it's true.

Have faint memories from school that it was illustrated with streams. Size, amount of water and speed of water, volume moved. Damn I forgot this. Embarrassing, this is what you learn in primary school (year 9 in school). It's probably damn best to know if I'm going to make that DIY pre amp to work. I throw in a little Ohm's law too. Then maybe there will be some speed on that pre amp. He he

The problem is even more complicatet. Your hard beats controlled by electicity, if you have now lets say a 50Hz current floating around your hard, it would enjoy beating 50 times a second, what it somehow not can, resulting in ventricular fibrillation. What results in, it wount pump blood anymore, what results in...yes you know it, a fu**ing situation. ;)
 

Trell

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Then I do not mean if it is possible to find a buyer but if it is legal.

For example in Sweden, as far as I know, it is forbidden to sell DIY tube amplifiers to private individuals BUT if I owned a DIY tube amplifier, which I did not build, I have the right to sell it. This only applies to those who have built, DIY tube amp which the law covers.

What does it look like in your country? Is it legal to sell DIY?

You have to be more specific what you mean be "legal" and "forbidden". You could assemble your own DIY tube amplifier and you won't go to jail, but good luck getting insurance to cover you if anything happens.
 

sq225917

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You'd be an idiot to sell an item in the UK without 3rd party liability insurance and that requires at the least a ce self certification for anything you sell.

But it's not illegal to sell something diy, or none ce certified, but it'd be a dumb move from a liability pov.

If you're a business however then it has to be certified.
 

Bob from Florida

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Aha aha, thanks tomtoo for the explanation. :)

Then I have it in my head that they say that it is worse to get a shock through the left arm than the right. Proximity to the heart. Do not know if it's true.

Have faint memories from school that it was illustrated with streams. Size, amount of water and speed of water, volume moved. Damn I forgot this. Embarrassing, this is what you learn in primary school (year 9 in school). It's probably damn best to know if I'm going to make that DIY pre amp to work. I throw in a little Ohm's law too. Then maybe there will be some speed on that pre amp. He he
Building tube amps or preamps is not rocket science. It requires respect and understanding of high voltage circuits. Proper layout, spacing, soldering skills, safety grounding, and safe design - not requiring the end user to open a hot chassis to do anything. Patience - no rushing the build - is key. Plugging an electric tea kettle into anything other than a GFCI is more hazardous than a well executed tube amp.
To be clear - building for yourself is one thing. Selling to the general public requires extra consideration. Safety certifications and perhaps some beta testers to demonstrate the end user stupidity you did not imagine during the design phase....
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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I'm going to do this. On Monday, I will call some authorities and find out what applies. Note applies in Sweden of course. I do not know how it is in other countries.:)

I'm investigating because this has now piqued my interest. For my part, I will neither DIY/manufacture nor sell any tube amplifiers.
 
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DanielT

DanielT

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You have to be more specific what you mean be "legal" and "forbidden". You could assemble your own DIY tube amplifier and you won't go to jail, but good luck getting insurance to cover you if anything happens.
See my previous post.

What the hell am I supposed to ask? Hm. I have to think about it a bit.:)
 

Trell

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I'm going to do this. On Monday, I will call some authorities and find out what applies. Note applies in Sweden of course. I do not know how it is in other countries.:)

I'm investigating because this has now piqued my interest. For my part, I will neither manufacture nor sell any tube amplifiers.

Call them, and then you ask to get his/her answer in writing as in my experience Swedish officials are likely to answer what they think it is as opposed to what it is instead of just saying "I don't know".

A paraphrase from a former colleague of mine: "In Germany they (officials) are unfriendly but competent, but in Sweden they are friendly but incompetent."
 
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