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Hegel H95 Review (Streaming Amplifier)

Geert

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Well this is just a reference to your own post with your claim. Not to at what test where levels adapted to optimal.
It's not a claim. I thought I could help you by explaining what's already mentioned in the review, and further on in this thread explained into detail by Amirm.
 
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Berlin

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Did you know that HEGEL has 5 amplifiers? And H95 is the most basic level. Think about how to sell them at least the H190 if it does not differ in sound? I have Listened every of 5. H95 is really not the most outstanding sound, but if you choose the acoustics correctly, it will play no worse than analogues for its price. The H390 plays very differently. H190 plays very differently. Try listening to music instead of measurements. Measurements have nothing to do with sound transmission quality.
I have listened to the H120 and directly afterwards to the H590. To me they sounded exactly the same. The connected speakers were a pair of ATC SCM40.
 

Lambda

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Hegel H95 Measurements Analog In Amplifier Streamer DAC.png
So the Amp makes 5W or 6.3V at vol 95 with 0.157V
this is a Gain ration of abut 40 or 32dB
We know max power is about 50W (20V)


So at This Point we know that with a gain of 32dB or vol > 95
we have to expect clipping at 0.5V


But anyways amirm trys to pusch the output to 2V at even more gain (vol =98)
why 98?


nominal 2 volts:

Hegel H95 Measurements Coax In In DAC Line Out Streamer DAC.png

Wat is the gain at 98? we know it is over 40 so assume 40 this would correspond to over 800W at the output

So why would you measure a 50W amp a 800W
 

Koeitje

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Did you know that HEGEL has 5 amplifiers? And H95 is the most basic level. Think about how to sell them at least the H190 if it does not differ in sound? I have Listened every of 5. H95 is really not the most outstanding sound, but if you choose the acoustics correctly, it will play no worse than analogues for its price. The H390 plays very differently. H190 plays very differently. Try listening to music instead of measurements. Measurements have nothing to do with sound transmission quality.
The more expensive models only supply more power. There no reason for them to sound different with a load that all 5 of them can handle. If they do its terrible design.

So the Amp makes 5W or 6.3V at vol 95 with 0.157V
this is a Gain ration of abut 40 or 32dB
We know max power is about 50W (20V)


So at This Point we know that with a gain of 32dB or vol > 95
we have to expect clipping at 0.5V


But anyways amirm trys to pusch the output to 2V at even more gain (vol =98)
why 98?




Wat is the gain at 98? we know it is over 40 so assume 40 this would correspond to over 800W at the output

So why would you measure a 50W amp a 800W
The question should be how Hegel allows it to output that voltage. If I floor the gas pedal in my car it will hit a rev limiter, it will not go beyond its operating specifications.
 

Lambda

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The question should be how Hegel allows it to output that voltage. If I floor the gas pedal in my car it will hit a rev limiter, it will not go beyond its operating specifications.
They don't.
The rev limiter in this cases is clipping at the output.

So this is kind of driving in first gear only till it hits the rev limiter and then complain about the noise.
Tells more about the driver then about the car.

Also if you do this in neutral in or first gear in an Lamborghini Aventador it will catch fire...

Edit: i'm not saying its an good amp or an good design
Sure it would be good if it had a clipping indicator or a protection mode triggering
But he can be happy he did nor brake it.

And any normal user with some speakers attached would have noticed something going horribly wrong.
An expert with an 30k$ analyzer not noticing is kind of strange...

Testing an amp with out load is a bad idea. especially if you way overdrive it.
 
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DanielT

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Congrats. You're the genius of the day.:facepalm:

How is that even possible to "listen to measurements" anyway?
But what is it about Hifi that makes seemingly sensible people not act as they usually do?

There are many moose in Sweden. Even my mom who does not know a shit about technology asked my father (a number of decades ago) when they would buy a new car if there had been any "moose test"performed on the car they were considering buying.
But in Hifi then you should not worry about tests and evaluations. Que?!Strange world, this world of HiFi.

After this was published, Mercedes had to go back to the drawing board. Maybe they can lend that drawing board to Hegel:


Edit:
Okay there may be the question of life or death compared to with an amplifier that may sound a little bad (if not even be audible?). But still, bad sound is irritatin.I'm looking for the very principle of not examining tests.
 
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V.b.

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Let's say I have this amplifier and I am not happy with it. Of course, it is my fault for cheap buying the low level Hegel. I need more power.

Maybe I decide that I want to keep using streaming and pre and I want to improve the sound by adding Purifi power amplifier. Set to the highest gain it needs 2.35 volts. But that is extreme, I don't need that, I should use a maximum 0.5v, which is about 20w into 4 ohms, that gives me the pride of feeding 80db and not 65db SINAD into 105db capable amplifier.

What was the price of that thing?
 

Lambda

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But in Hifi then you should not worry about tests and evaluations. Strange world, this world of HiFi.
In Hifi you waist your money. And if it sounds good enough to you it is good enough for you.
Has nothing to do with safety.

Moos test is BTW a stupid non standard/official test at costing with constant speed! any normal driver would brake. and thereby changed the Balance and enable electronic stability assistant systems.


Maybe I decide that I want to keep using streaming and pre and I want to improve the sound by adding Purifi power amplifier. Set to the highest gain it needs 2.35 volts. But that is extreme, I don't need that, I should use a maximum 0.5v, which is about 20w into 4 ohms, that gives me the pride of feeding 80db and not 65db SINAD into 105db capable amplifier.

What was the price of that thing?
Your using the wrong tool for the job since you can't disable the amplifier you can't uses it as a stream.

Maybe with ab headphone plunged in it would disable the amplifier?
@Hegel Music System
 
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DanielT

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Let's say I have this amplifier and I am not happy with it. Of course, it is my fault for cheap buying the low level Hegel. I need more power.

Maybe I decide that I want to keep using streaming and pre and I want to improve the sound by adding Purifi power amplifier. Set to the highest gain it needs 2.35 volts. But that is extreme, I don't need that, I should use a maximum 0.5v, which is about 20w into 4 ohms, that gives me the pride of feeding 80db and not 65db SINAD into 105db capable amplifier.

What was the price of that thing?
Well, you probably have to check in your country what they cost. Have pre out.
There are lots of amplifiers with pre out. When buying used the usual. Investigate if any replacement of electronics is needed. Service done.
NAD 3020 CAN unfortunately have a rather loud buzzing, humming transformer. Otherwise, it's a yummy little racer.:)


 

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DanielT

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In Hifi you waist your money. And if it sounds good enough to you it is good enough for you.
Has nothing to do with safety.

Moos test is BTW a stupid non standard/official test at costing with constant speed! any normal driver would brake. and thereby changed the Balance and enable electronic stability assistant systems.



Your using the wrong tool for the job since you can't disable the amplifier you can't uses it as a stream.

Maybe with ab headphone plunged in it would disable the amplifier?
@Hegel Music System
I want to protect my ears from bad sound.:)

Of course it is not possible to compare the road holding of a car (where it can be a matter of life or death) with an amplifier that may sound a little bad (if not even be audible?). But still, bad sound is irritating.

When I swayed for wild animals in traffic, it's probably the first thing I did to turn the steering wheel, I think. They jump out of the wall branch and you act lightning fast without thinking. Do not actually know, but there is certainly research around how drivers do/act. Okay OT so in another thread.:)
 
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DSJR

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This is disingenuous. He did not say anything about Paul Miller being a “has been”. He wrote, “Paul Miller is not who he used to be. He used to have tons of graphs with pass/fail criteria. Now he does the minimum to let the whole "review" essentially by a subjective piece” which quite clearly points to a difference in how his reviews are presented now compared to before. I don’t know why you keep having to make snide comments. It really does you no favours. Just let your facts stand or fail on their own merit. You will be respected more.
Late reply, but doesn't PM still have a link to a fuller spectrum of tech measurements that don't make it to the HFN text? Got to say I feel nauseous at the prices of much of the gear HFN reviews these days (a lot of it seems all casework too but I digress), but I'm sure the Miller Audio Suite prevails for those few of us who want to look deeper... The site also goes into description of the hardware itself and what it does.


 

Lambda

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I want to protect my ears from bad sound.:)

Of course it is not possible to compare the road holding of a car (where it can be a matter of life or death) with an amplifier that may sound a little bad (if not even be audible). But still, bad sound is irritating.
To play devil's advocate:
We listen with our ears and brain. Placebo effect is known to be very strong and if you think your HiFi system is super magical it might sound super Good to you.
The Placebo Effekt might even make it sound better then an technically perfect System ever could.

So is it more important to protect from a view dB worse SINAD you wont hear anyways or from the dissolution.
 

pozz

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In Hifi you waist your money. And if it sounds good enough to you it is good enough for you.
Has nothing to do with safety.
Plenty of headphones and speakers have been blown by poor amps. And then poor grounding and assembly is a definite safety risk.

There's more room for safe error in audio, of course. Most of the time all that's really at fault is suboptimal design.

Like this classic review shows: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-iso-dac-teardown-and-failed-review.9653/
 

amper42

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To me it seems pretty reasonable that the line out is intended for connecting a subwoofer. It wouldn’t make much practical sense to buy an integrated amp to use it with an external amplifier if what you really need is a pre-amp. It’s also an incredibly common use case for an integrated to pair it with a powered sub.

So I get that the design has a drawback in relation to all of the ways it theoretically could be used, but driving it to clipping all the time while using the line outs would also be strange. I don’t have an issue with Hegel’s commentary.

Amir’s testing is valid, and consistency from one component to the next is important. Nothing need be taken back, but there’s a layer of interpretation that puts the results in a better context than just being a super noisy design.

The problem is the Hegel H95 does not offer a standard line out. It's a "variable" line out that offers no separate volume control. The gain from the "variable" line out is audibly less than the main out at the speaker terminals. I used the Hegel H90 variable line out with a second pair of speakers+amp once but since it's gain is so much lower it didn't fit my needs. I don't know why they built it that way it's below spec for a sub and/or additional speakers. When you take that unusual "feature" or defect whichever you like to call it and use it as a measuring point for performance measurements - it ensures the Hegel integrated will be deficient in comparison to other devices with a standard line out.
 

DanielT

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Plenty of headphones and speakers have been blown by poor amps. And then poor grounding and assembly is a definite safety risk.

There's more room for safe error in audio, of course. Most of the time all that's really at fault is suboptimal design.

Like this classic review shows: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ciúnas-audio-iso-dac-teardown-and-failed-review.9653/
I became curious about one thing regarding safety and DIY. I created a new thread about it.

 

Mathias

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The reasoning is a solution to a tough problem. Namely, how to compare integrated amplifiers with volume control to power amplifiers without. Anything else won't be fair. The gain on power amplifiers is not variable of course. But it is generally around the 29 dB that I test for. Where did that number come from? It is the THX certification criteria for amplifiers. So what I do is adjust the volume on an integrated amplifier until it hits 29 dB. I then adjust the input until I get 5 watts. That results in the type of input values you are seeing.

Yes, in a modern world I like to see us move to lower gain amplification and take advantage of the higher output of modern DACs. But the industry with some rare exceptions, is not going there.

Fortunately the difference is not large in many tests I have performed. Most amplifiers are distortion limited, not noise so gain won't matter. When it does change, it is only a few dB.
Thank you for your reply.
So actually, the integrated amplifiers are measured as if they were power amplifiers with 29dB gain, for comparability with power amplifiers.

I see, but is there any chance that they are also measured as we use them in the real world? (2V analog input level, 0dBFS digital level)

I mean, if I were looking for an integrated amplifier and looked at the measurements, I would see the SINAD results as I would use them and not as I would never use them anyway. Even if, as you say, there is not much difference.

Who knows, maybe some manufacturers have messed up the volume control at lower volume levels which could cause a difference compared to other manufacturers? What is not revealed by the current measurement procedure at near maximum volume control level. Or it could be something else.

The point is that I would like to see the SINAD that I can achieve at home under normal use.

Would you consider making such measurements in the future in addition to the measurements you have made so far?
 

ahofer

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Balle Clorin

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So a new owner can only listen to his/her new $3000 integrated amp at half volume? I'll pass.
I am not here to defend Hegel, but Who does listen above 12 O`clock?,I have rarely seen an amplifier operatino at 13 00 Hrs . usually that volume setting becomes unbearingly loud
 
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