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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

Purité Audio

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Hi
I am interested in the Dutch&Dutch 8C. In Switzerland, unfortunately, there are no dealers or showrooms where I can look and listen to the speaker.
Are there any 8C owners who live in Zurich, St. Gallen, Bern or Basel who would show me the speaker? That would be great!
If there are no local retailers/distributors then you can contact D&D directly they will help with measurement /installation/optimisation they have tons of experience and the 8Cs REW integration makes the process extremely straightforward.
Keith
 

baumaand

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Hi Keith
I am already in contact with Martijn from Dutch&Dutch. Even if I can return the speaker, I prefer to see and hear the product before I order it.
Andreas
 
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Digby

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For the kind of money you're looking to spend, take a trip there and listen yourself (after/if all this lockdown nonsense sorts itself out).
 

baumaand

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For the kind of money you're looking to spend, take a trip there and listen yourself (after/if all this lockdown nonsense sorts itself out).
I would prefer avoid flying around just for listening a loudspeaker when I can do it in Zurich.
 

abdo123

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Can you explain more please.
well the Kii three uses 4 out of phase drivers (2 in the back, 1 on each side) to get the cardioid pattern down to ~50Hz or so.

While the Dutch & Dutch 8C gets the cardioid pattern mechanically by having open slots on the side of the cabinet releasing (out of phase) sound from the cabinet so it cancels the in phase sound radiating from the back of the cabinet, its cardioid range ends at ~150Hz or so.

The Kii 3 would very obviously have louder and cleaner output as it uses a lot of amplification and drivers while the Dutch & Dutch 8C uses only one driver at the cardioid range with the air leaking out of the cabinet which inevitably causes a drop in sensitivity.
 
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Soniclife

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well the Kii three uses 4 out of phase drivers (2 in the back, 1 on each side) to get the cardioid pattern down to ~50Hz or so.

While the Dutch & Dutch 8C gets the cardioid pattern mechanically by having open slots on the side of the cabinet releasing (out of phase) sound from the cabinet so it cancels the in phase sound radiating from the back of the cabinet, its cardioid range ends at ~150Hz or so.

The Kii 3 would very obviously have louder and cleaner output as it uses a lot of amplification and drivers while the Dutch & Dutch 8C uses only one driver at the cardioid range with the air leaking out of the cabinet which inevitably causes a drop in sensitivity.
There is a difference in how low the cardioid goes, but I was looking for analysis of existing measurements for how well they work, not guesses based on their different implementations. Erin's measurements will be fascinating.
 

abdo123

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There is a difference in how low the cardioid goes, but I was looking for analysis of existing measurements for how well they work
the Kii Three won't have a 3rd harmonic at -20dB @100Hz @ 96dBSPL @ 1m that's for sure. and won't be mid-range limited at ~105 dB @ 1m.

Basically the D&D is expensive because of R&D costs. the science behind their cardioid design is not well understood and it was achieved via trial and error (you can read the thread at diyaudio). the Kii Three is expensive because the manufacuring costs are higher, extensive DSP, 6- channel amplification and 6 drivers, i think the whole thing is made out of milled aluminum.

All in all the Kii Three should be the zero-compromise design out of the two. but the review will tell for sure.
 

Absolute

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well the Kii three uses 4 out of phase drivers (2 in the back, 1 on each side) to get the cardioid pattern down to ~50Hz or so.

While the Dutch & Dutch 8C gets the cardioid pattern mechanically by having open slots on the side of the cabinet releasing (out of phase) sound from the cabinet so it cancels the in phase sound radiating from the back of the cabinet, its cardioid range ends at ~150Hz or so.

The Kii 3 would very obviously have louder and cleaner output as it uses a lot of amplification and drivers while the Dutch & Dutch 8C uses only one driver at the cardioid range with the air leaking out of the cabinet which inevitably causes a drop in sensitivity.
Yeah, I don't think Kii will measure much better distortion wise. The cardioide steals capacity from the forward firing driver, which in Kii is a 5 inch mid. Both speakers are excellent, but both are quite small and limited capacity wise from a distortion perspective.

In my living room it sounded miles better by adding a couple of poor man's BXT's crossed over at 200 hz with the Kii's. Distortion went down by around 20 dB around 200-300 hz if I recall correctly.
 

abdo123

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Yeah, I don't think Kii will measure much better distortion wise. The cardioide steals capacity from the forward firing driver, which in Kii is a 5 inch mid. Both speakers are excellent, but both are quite small and limited capacity wise from a distortion perspective.

In my living room it sounded miles better by adding a couple of poor man's BXT's crossed over at 200 hz with the Kii's. Distortion went down by around 20 dB around 200-300 hz if I recall correctly.
Did you do some near-field measurements? because it seems like the side drivers are what play below 300Hz.

bildschirmfoto20181102um160605.png
 

Soniclife

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the Kii Three won't have a 3rd harmonic at -20dB @100Hz @ 96dBSPL @ 1m that's for sure. and won't be mid-range limited at ~105 dB @ 1m.
This is just more speculation, not measurement interpretation, which was what you implied existed.
 

Soniclife

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Basically the D&D is expensive because of R&D costs. the science behind their cardioid design is not well understood and it was achieved via trial and error (you can read the thread at diyaudio).
Caring how it works is one of the big delusions in hi-fi, I don't care if it was developed using dice theory, only how well the finished product delivers. FWIW I'd rather a product be expensive because of R&D than it was made of unobtanium.
 

Soniclife

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Yeah, I don't think Kii will measure much better distortion wise. The cardioide steals capacity from the forward firing driver, which in Kii is a 5 inch mid. Both speakers are excellent, but both are quite small and limited capacity wise from a distortion perspective.
That's my guess as well, probably a bit lower distortion in the cardioid range, but with a less effective cardioid, so it won't be a like for like comparison.
I'm not sure but I think the kii uses the side drivers to shape the front drivers dispersion, and the rear drivers to shape the side drivers dispersion, so they are all stealing efficiency from the other, and they are much smaller than the 8c drivers. Implementation will be everything.
 

Absolute

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Did you do some near-field measurements? because it seems like the side drivers are what play below 300Hz.

bildschirmfoto20181102um160605.png
Unfortunately I don't think I did much near-field measurements at that time. If I'm not mistaken I believe the side-woofers are crossed over at around 250 hz.

I don't believe there's any separate chambers for the side and/or back woofers, nor much dampening of the inside of the cabinet either, so distortion may or may not come from what we assume. You might be right with your analysis, but I think you're a bit too optimistic based on my own experience and what I've seen in the measurements below. Let's wait until we have a like-for-like comparison from our man @hardisj

kii distortion.png
Screenshot_20211124-210626_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

abdo123

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Unfortunately I don't think I did much near-field measurements at that time. If I'm not mistaken I believe the side-woofers are crossed over at around 250 hz.

I don't believe there's any separate chambers for the side and/or back woofers, nor much dampening of the inside of the cabinet either, so distortion may or may not come from what we assume. You might be right with your analysis, but I think you're a bit too optimistic based on my own experience and what I've seen in the measurements below. Let's wait until we have a like-for-like comparison from our man @hardisj

View attachment 167859View attachment 167860
Indeed it's better to wait for the review, the D&D's Harmonic Distortion is notoriously mostly third harmonic though, i would be hard pressed if the Kii Three shows similar results.
 

Absolute

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Indeed it's better to wait for the review, the D&D's Harmonic Distortion is notoriously mostly third harmonic though, i would be hard pressed if the Kii Three shows similar results.
It would be somewhat surprising if dominated by third harmonic given the advantage of a sealed box where no air is pushed out of slots, but if it's from the loss of spl due to cardioide interference and necessary EQ to up the level in the 100-300 hz area it could very well show much the same.
I'm painfully aware that far-field in-room measurements can't be trusted for distortion accuracy, but at least here's a measurement I found of Kii in the listening position after Audiolense adjusted frequency response to compensate for SBIR dip in the 200-300 range. Probably about 10 dB boost in that area, 3,5 meter distance and one speaker playing.


Kii distortion after audiolense LP.jpg


It'll be interesting indeed to see complete set of measurements :)
 
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