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JBL 4429 vs 4349

aac

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@aac I found filters needed for 705i single wired on minidsp forum, and it just looks like PEQ. Are you sure I need a convolution engine?

See the attachment:

View attachment 163221
There are two ways of doing it
First is to use BSS, which uses PEQ
The problem with it is that nobody knows what model they use to construct. Especially on higher frequencies. Also there is a "high shelf" which might differ even more.

Second option is DCIN amplifier which combines convolution with impulse and PEQ. Which is a better way, because with it at least you have some filters 100% matched, and the shelf is included there.
Convolution is (you can convert it to wav using audactity or something like that, if needed)
Sample rate is 48 khz

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And four filters are
1636052528573.png
 
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cany89

cany89

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Single wire is single wire, you cannot and must not change delay. You got to do your research: are the slopes in minidsp the same as original DSP option? That might differ, this is why extra care was given with the reverse engineered M2 xo to ensure that slopes and magnitude are the same with different base technology. In the end, the filter function must be identical.
Ok now I get it! This changes everything, so @aac is totally right about not to trust PEQ. I might solve Q values but high-shelf is sure trivial :/
 
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cany89

cany89

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Jbl always disappointed me in the end. Gross shop friendly sound, but at home , problems arise, turn up the volume in my treated big room and they just can't handle it, no bracing inside, cheap X over full of electrolytic caps, with serious music they are finished. No classical, jbl is intent in saving 30 bucks in the production line, that same money could make a huge improvement in sound with bracing, simpler and better X over, and silicon gaskets. Not so many people can afford 20.000 bucks a piece 6600 s, but c Mon JBL make more decent items and keep them in production, don't change every six months. For that plastic gadgets too !!!!
I’m a bit disappointed with their synthesis line up as there is not much love for them here. I agree about outdated speaker design is not nice when they are few thousand dollars. 705/708 on the other hand is an achievement!
 
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cany89

cany89

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Second option is DCIN amplifier which combines convolution with impulse and PEQ. Which is a better way, because with it at least you have some filters 100% matched, and the shelf is included there.
Convolution is (you can convert it to wav using audactity or something like that, if needed) Sample rate is 48 khz

So if I want to use this, all I need is a plugin like HLConvolverc to apply the file you shared? Or still need to apply the filters on top some how?
 

aac

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So if I want to use this, all I need is a plugin like HLConvolverc to apply the file you shared? Or still need to apply the filters on top some how?
You need some way to do it and apply four filters on top of it ("speaker eq" section in the screenshot)
 
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cany89

cany89

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You need some way to do it and apply four filters on top of it ("speaker eq" section in the screenshot)
Ok let me see if I can make it. Thanks for all the help btw :)
 

jhaider

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@jhaider I’m a little bit confused here. So you are saying even if I use just single wire - not bi-amp - still the intended DSP settings should be applied on either BSS or Crown?

YES!!!

To back up for a minute, a speaker crossover (passive, active, or hybrid thereof) has 2 core functions: manage the handoff between drive units, and linearize/voice the system response. In 7-series install single-wire configuration these functions are divided: the handoff is passive and linearization is external. This may also apply to “biwire” - not sure if the passive filter is all the way out. I suspect not, at least on the tweeter side - leaving it adds a measure of driver protection and reduces the noise floor of amp driving compression driver directly.

Note that’s only FR. Do not discount the possibility that there could be other processing at play, such as limiters. I do not know one way or the other but it is possible.

A different perspective: since Amir measured the powered version here, the spinorama he shared is at least with the default preset - so probably much better than what I’m getting without a DSP right now, correct?

Correct. Caveat is Amir’s unit had some deviations that were not evident in my personal 705i measurements* or S-und-R’s 705P report. I don’t know if the root cause of these deviations were analyzed.

*to be accurate, I never measured the complete system. I’ve measured an unfiltered 705i and the transfer function of the filter on a BSS BLU-50.

@aac I found filters needed for 705i single wired on minidsp forum, and it just looks like PEQ. Hi

That’s what I thought you were already doing when you mentioned the computer. Using those filters on a miniDSP or Monoprice HTP-1 result in the FR deviations from the intended target I discuss above compared to using the intended processor.

Bottom line IMO is use the real thing. It would likely cost more man-hours dicking around with computers to hack the IP than the equivalent cost to simply buy the real thing in the first place.
 

Tom C

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Hmmm….bought JBL x 4 in the past year and a half. They’ve never disappointed me. And serious classical sounds great! My Eons have 500 watts per channel in the upper cabinets, and 500 watts per channel in the Subwoofers. That’s usually enough for me.
 

aac

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Do not discount the possibility that there could be other processing at play, such as limiters. I do not know one way or the other but it is possible.
Limiter is in the place. You can see settings in the screenshot. It's not hard to replicate with a limiter plugin, if you want to.
 
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cany89

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YES!!!

To back up for a minute, a speaker crossover (passive, active, or hybrid thereof) has 2 core functions: manage the handoff between drive units, and linearize/voice the system response. In 7-series install single-wire configuration these functions are divided: the handoff is passive and linearization is external. This may also apply to “biwire” - not sure if the passive filter is all the way out. I suspect not, at least on the tweeter side - leaving it adds a measure of driver protection and reduces the noise floor of amp driving compression driver directly.

Note that’s only FR. Do not discount the possibility that there could be other processing at play, such as limiters. I do not know one way or the other but it is possible.



Correct. Caveat is Amir’s unit had some deviations that were not evident in my personal 705i measurements* or S-und-R’s 705P report. I don’t know if the root cause of these deviations were analyzed.

*to be accurate, I never measured the complete system. I’ve measured an unfiltered 705i and the transfer function of the filter on a BSS BLU-50.



That’s what I thought you were already doing when you mentioned the computer. Using those filters on a miniDSP or Monoprice HTP-1 result in the FR deviations from the intended target I discuss above compared to using the intended processor.

Bottom line IMO is use the real thing. It would likely cost more man-hours dicking around with computers to hack the IP than the equivalent cost to simply buy the real thing in the first place.

Well after countless hours I totally understand what you are saying. The deviations you are talking about are sure there. The M2 document shared above has pages explaining these. As aac said, there is 2 options if I'm not going to use hardware - and I don't want to buy tbh. But as you have said it's hard work to match the Qs, high-shelf, etc. Not even thinking about rePhase.

At least, I'm not bi-amping. That is much more complicated.

That’s what I thought you were already doing when you mentioned the computer.
Nope, I was just using my DSP to apply fake crossover between speakers and subs. I'll buy a Behringer rack crossover to do it after the Adi-2 and use my DSP (software or Adi) to room correction and 705.

I'll try some settings and measure the difference today/tomorrow. I'll share the measurements here.
 
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cany89

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Hmmm….bought JBL x 4 in the past year and a half. They’ve never disappointed me. And serious classical sounds great! My Eons have 500 watts per channel in the upper cabinets, and 500 watts per channel in the Subwoofers. That’s usually enough for me.
haha 500 watts is sure enough for anyone :D
 
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cany89

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Well, tried my best to apply the EQ using the M2 document. It's a clear defeat. No hope.

Screen Shot 2021-11-05 at 14.03.34.png


I converted width to Q, I thought it was correct but nah. I don't have 6 dB slopes on peaks, that's also a problem. But It wouldn't look good with 6 dB slopes either.
Type Slope Freq Q Boost
1 - Highshelf 12 700 Hz 1.757925 -6
2 - Peak 6 2.43 kHz 3.422888 +5.53
3 - Peak 6 6.15 kHz 2.871 +3.61
4 - Peak 6 1.67 kHz 5.763566 +5.45
5 - Peak 6 10.7 kHz 6.863915 +3.74
6 - Peak 6 3.50 kHz 4.111895 -2.50
7 - Peak 6 16.7 kHz 6.863915 +2.54
8 - Peak 12 5.00 kHz 9.613636 +1.92
9 - Peak 6 1.97 kHz 12.018994 +1.46
10 Peak 6 975 Hz 6.863915 - 0.81
11 Peak 6 7.87 kHz 4.111895 - 0.58
12 Peak 6 48.0 Hz 1.757925 +7.50
13 Peak 6 87.5 Hz 4.111895 +2.23
14 Peak 6 350 Hz 1.414214 -0.5
15 Peak 6 110 Hz 4.80033 -0.25
 
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cany89

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BTW Found these used with a good deal, what do you think? :D No need for subs, crossover, etc. Just these with a bit room EQ.

jbl_4435-2.jpg
 
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cany89

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:eek: I envy you now! :D

Well if you think about it for a sec., on one hand, we got:
705 with amazing upper mid and highs.
- Upgrade to 708 for more mid volume
- I need to add 2x 12-14 inch subs for around 120hz and below. This means totally new tech, powered subs with built-in basic DSP. (opting for budget SVSs here)
- SPL Crossover, need a good analog crossover to divide signal.
If tuned correctly, you got 3x driver for each channel. On paper, this sounds amazing.
(Roughly: Crossover $3.5K, 2x SVS PB-3000 $5K, 705 to 708 around $2,5K. Total $11K )

Or, I can sell my 705s and buy the big boys - JBL 4435. Downside is:
- Old woofers will need replace at some point. I don't know how and how much.
- Need to buy one more power amp. Since subs are not active, I need to buy 1x the same amp for mono.
- I'm not sure if its horn can keep up with 705. it's more than 40 years old tech...
(Roughly: Amp: $4K, 705 to 4435 around $7K. Total $11K)

What do you think!
 

thewas

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What do you think!
The JBL 44xx horns were very innovative for their time and also the woofers last long, except the common and easy to repair surround issues.

They are different calibre than the 705/708, more to be compared with the JBL M2 which can be seen as their modern successor.
 

jhaider

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BTW Found these used with a good deal, what do you think? :D

Fine as a nostalgia play I guess. I’ve only heard the single woofer version, but it didn’t stand out to me as a peer speaker to good modern designs. I liked the Tannoy 12 DMT II I was using at the time much more, and those IMO aren’t competitive today either. I’d take 705i with proper electronics over either one without blinking an eye.

Well, tried my best to apply the EQ using the M2 document. It's a clear defeat. No hope.

Yep, told ya.

- SPL Crossover, need a good analog crossover to divide signal.

Why would you want an analog crossover in 2021?

IMO if you’re looking for an SPL boost and don’t want to buy the right electronics for 7-series install then 708P is the logical progression. They ain’t pretty though.
 

aac

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If you have a quite listening place "p" 7 series is a not an option.
 

jhaider

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If you have a quite listening place "p" 7 series is a not an option.

Why? Are you confusing 3 and 7? I’m pretty sensitive to hiss and 708P was fine from both AES and XLR in. Never heard/seen 705P.
 

Tom C

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708p x 2 is less than $4,000. 705p x 2 is about $2,000.
A Crown DCi 4|300N is one of the JBL recommended amps for both 705i and 708i, and would get you the factory crossover, dsp and amp power for a stereo pair, and sells for about $3,100. Might be hard to find one available right now, though, and the amp has a fan, so they recommend placing in a different room.
So, looks like the cheapest option is to either replace your 705i with 705p (cheaper than buying Crown at $3,100), or replacing 705i with 708p (about double the first option, but less than 708i x 2 plus Crown amp).
The subs you may want no matter what you do. I know I would.
You know you’re happy with the 705’s. I assume you’ve never heard the vintage JBL’s. They may be fabulous, but the element of uncertainty is higher, and you might not be able to return them if you’re disappointed.
 
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