Should hard drugs be decriminalized and then supply pharmaceutical grade drugs to users.

[abdo123]

this is a very convoluted topic, on one hand the Govermnet could tax the income of the drugs if it's legal and thus make money out of other people's suffering, but again that's been the case since the dawn of civilization. Does it matter if it's a 9 to 5 job or Heroin?

At the other hand, people with addiction issues can seek medical help without fear of persecution, as more people talk openingly about this issue the stigma with drug addiction will also disappear, meaning people can be open about their sobriety and raise awareness about it and encourage people to get help without stigma.

In northern Europe and in Belgium in particular we have a huge issue with Cocaine, it's much more popular than weed. but since it's illegal it's a hush hush situation and nothing is changing about it.

 

[Willem]

In the Netherlands heroin use has declined a lot, and users are not prosecuted. Cannabis use is widespread, and not illegal. We have so-called coffee shops where it can be sold legally in smaller quantities. Still, we have problems. The supply of these coffee shops has not been legalized and has created a supply chain run by big organized and violent crime. More problematic perhaps is the rise in cocaine consumption, again dominated by organized crime, but now also by far more violent gangs from south America. And if anyone is concerned about health risks, banning cigarettes would be the best public health policy.
However, as I would teach in my introduction to price theory, prohibition creates massive profits for criminals, and I think that is the really big social problem. The state itself is being undermined.

 

[abdo123]

In the Netherlands heroin use has declined a lot, and users are not prosecuted. Cannabis use is widespread, and not illegal. We have so-called coffee shops where it can be sold legally in smaller quantities. Still, we have problems. The supply of these coffee shops has not been legalized and has created a supply chain run by big organized and violent crime. More problematic perhaps is the rise in cocaine consumption, again dominated by organized crime, but now also by far more violent gangs from south America. And if anyone is concerned about health risks, banning cigarettes would be the best public health policy.
However, as I would teach in my introduction to price theory, prohibition creates massive profits for criminals, and I think that is the really big social problem. The state itself is being undermined.

i wouldn't be surprised if these same gangs are lobbying the government to keep it illegal.

 

[TLEDDY]

i wouldn't be surprised if these same gangs are lobbying the government to keep it illegal.

^^^^^^^ I am suspicious of this as well. Vast sums of money involved!^^^^^^

 

[bloodshoteyed]

... they should have learned that from the US first failed experiment called 1920's Prohibition...

i still can't wrap my head around the hypocrisy regarding alcohol vs other drugs

 

[Willem]

i wouldn't be surprised if these same gangs are lobbying the government to keep it illegal.

I am happy to face all kinds of unpleasant truths, but I don't believe this one.

 

[Mart68]

i still can't wrap my head around the hypocrisy regarding alcohol vs other drugs

Not so much hypocrisy as reality. It's pretty easy for anyone to make alcohol so banning it is totally ineffectual. It's now also cheap and easy to grow cannabis which is why that still being illegal has now become silly.

Making your own amphetamines or heroin is still beyond the reach of the man in the street so banning their use is still partially effective.

 

[FrantzM]

When it coms to psychotropic drugs things get complicated very fast. Societies throughout history have had a hard time coping with these.
Legalizing anything is conceived by most people as a right to use or entertain the notion of, at least, try. It goes quickly downhill from there: What to do when people are addicted? How to control or limit consumption? How do you treat people that are addicted? What will be the impact of increase users on society? etc...
Now, much is said about the drugs cartels and their violent tactics; what about when we have "legal" producers and with their equally deleterious but much more subtle or obtuse tactics? Big Pharma, Big Oil , Big Tabaco, now Big Tech have proved to the world how they nefarious they can be or continue to be... How will we deal with the producers of such powerfully addictive items? And their , now legal ecosystem?
The present system is far from perfect but we need to be careful about legalizing, what we deem as "hard drugs"... Very careful... Serious and objective studies, need to be conducted , not reactions, opinions, wants and desires... that can affect society at its core.

Peace

 

[abdo123]

When it coms to psychotropic drugs things get complicated very fast. Societies throughout history have had a hard time coping with these.
Legalizing anything is conceived by most people as a right to use or entertain the notion of, at least, try. It goes quickly downhill from there: What to do when people are addicted? How to control or limit consumption? How do you treat people that are addicted? What will be the impact of increase users on society? etc...
Now, much is said about the drugs cartels and their violent tactics; what about when we have "legal" producers and with their equally deleterious but much more subtle or obtuse tactics? Big Pharma, Big Oil , Big Tabaco, now Big Tech have proved to the world how they nefarious they can be or continue to be... How will we deal with the producers of such powerfully addictive items? And their , now legal ecosystem?
The present system is far from perfect but we need to be careful about legalizing, what we deem as "hard drugs"... Very careful... Serious and objective studies, need to be conducted , not reactions, opinions, wants and desires... that can affect society at its core.

Peace

this sort of excuse has been used for too long to not do anything about this or any other 'controversial' issue.

whatever solution comes up won't be perfect, but it will get better over time. doing nothing means nothing changes or improves.

 

[hex168]

I support full legalization and free government supply.
Reasons:
1) Fewer deaths and lower costs to society
2) Vastly reduced costs to those not involved with drugs, e.g. reduced robberies, burglaries, murders. Any harm, at least, is to those choosing it for themselves (although government supply is safer for drug users as well)
3) De-funds the drug cartels, the War on Drugs, prisons for profit.

 

[MRC01]

I support full legalization but not free government supply, because that means forcing me and other non-users to pay for the drugs other people use. When people lose control of their drug use and drift from "recreational" to "addict", we should have some kind of government supported rehabilitation. Yet this is complicated by the fact that no amount of money or support can rehabilitate people who don't want to be rehabilitated. So while most people agree we should have some kind of rehab programs, that's a wide open field with many different kinds of solutions. Some might help, while some do nothing, and others might make things worse, so it's a difficult open question what those programs should be.
Look to Portugal, sure. And anywhere else people are trying different solutions. But keep in mind that what works in one place doesn't necessarily work in another, due to differences in culture, government and society in general.

 

[Godataloss]

I am steadfastly against the use of any and all drugs. Unless of course you are looking to have a really good time.

 

[JJB70]

I honestly don't know the answer. I am familiar with the situation in England which is a complete mess. The problem is I am really not certain that legalization would address those issues.

 

[NiagaraPete]

As a Canadian I can tell you first hand legislation of Pot has been a clusterfxxx. In no way has it slowed the black market.

I’d much rather see a marked increase in mental health services before we go the next step.

There is also a big push on to legalize magic mushrooms which I wouldn’t have an issue with.

 

[JRS]

I see the narcan kits strapped to peoples waists and hanging off belts and such around town and I know people that keep them at home/in the car just in case. People are really geared up for this. The narcan kits are free in pharmacies. I was commuting the other day and saw a guy at a bus stop hunched over and apparently unconscious and another guy was opening what appeared to be a narcan kit with the large red cross on it and looked like he was preparing to inject. It's so common now the ambulances are running all night long and the first responders are saying it in the news that it is because of opiates.

I receive prescriptions for codeine when I have a horrible lung infection/cold. I have asthma. They are 60mg per tablet and another 30mg in the liquid syrup per spoon. Anywayyy... I take enough to totally suppress the cough so I don't break a rib or whatever happens. Yes, I exceed the Doctors prescription just to avoid the horrible coughing and associated pain never mind the impossibility to talk without coughing. The result is after 3-4+ days I am realllly backed up in the lower digestive system and have horrible experiences clearing it. It's like I loose the urge to defecate for days and get backed up. So what do these fentanyl users experience. Is this a issue with fentanyl too?

They are indeed gaining currency--the nasal administration is a small fraction of the autoinjector syringe (3000. apiece?!--I believe the nasal is about 30.00/dose).
Re your question, all opiates cause constipation. Some "flavors may be a bit better than others, I'll pm some info.

 

[MRC01]

... As a Canadian I can tell you first hand legislation of Pot has been a clusterfxxx. In no way has it slowed the black market. ...

Here in the US it's been state by state with different rules. Some have had better success than others. One thing we've seen is that when you legalize pot, if you set the taxes too high, or make the rules too complex or burdensome, you're only recreating the black market you were trying to eliminate.
This doesn't mean you can't tax & regulate it, but one must do it intelligently and not heavy-handed.

 

[Lambda]

There is also a big push on to legalize magic mushrooms which I wouldn’t have an issue with.

Why?
Why do you think your government should control what you are allowed to consume?

Legal dose not mean Save
We need get away from this Mindset and go back to people being allowed to be selves responsible.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Why?
Why do you think your government should control what you are allowed to consume?

Legal dose not mean Save
We need get away from this Mindset and go back to people being allowed to be selves responsible.

I can’t disagree with you. I guess we’re use to being controlled.

 

[JRS]

I am a strong supporter of legalization - not only legal, but provided gratis.

The benefits are manifold:

Overdose deaths essentially eliminated
Incarceration from drug related crimes reduce prison population by over 60%
Need for law enforcment officers reduced (DEA, local)
Drug cartels, especially Mexico, South America and the Middle East destroyed (eliminates major source of funding for terrorists as well as government graft and corruption)
”Gangs” essentially eliminated, along with murders, robberies and the plethora of crimes committed to support a drug habit

The only drug I would not include is the amphetamine family… the neuropsychological side effects are debilitating and, to my understanding, not medically manageable.

The monetary savings are almost incalculable. Those funds, then invested in social programs to eliminate mental illness, homelessness, hunger and a plethora of societal ills would be better invested.

Discussion invited!

Tillman

Nice post. It is exactly like if you had to come up with a group of policies as ill-advised as possible, you would have the US system. If one is interested in the story, let me once again recommend the book The US Gov't versus Billie Holiday. You meet the weasel responsible and his seeming indifference to organized crime while going after doctors who were trying to treat with proven means. Worse yet, the US policy became a cancer, and UN treaties include that the signatories enforce a US style of prohibition. It took real balls for Portugal to blaze a trail. The Dutch have been more progressive than most, but it's more tolerance than legality that keeps the chemists well paid, producing much of the world's supply of MDMA and LSD.

It would be hard to have an exception, but they knew in the 60's that speed kills, and so if there was one, it should be meth. One problem is of course that there are legitimate uses of amphetamines like ADHD, and the fact that it's a pretty easy synthesis. But perhaps if criminal charges were reserved for the one drug, people would just use others. Not sure, have been told by multiple experts in intoxication that there is nothing like a meth rush, so I suspect there will always be an audience.

And yes, nasty brain effects. I've seen patients with more than a transient induced psychosis (typically paranoid delusions, auditory hallucinations) that doesn't clear with abstinence. Essentially requires schizophrenic meds to control--and work more or less.

 

[JRS]

Why?
Why do you think your government should control what you are allowed to consume?

Legal dose not mean Save
We need get away from this Mindset and go back to people being allowed to be selves responsible.

Seattle just decriminalized magic mushrooms, joining about a dozen major cities (most home to big universities--Boulder, Berkeley, Madison, etc) that have, and of course Oregon they have been legal statewide for a year. Psychiatry is finally taking a long overdue reconsideration of therapeutic psilocybin, and the early trials have scored major successes. Interestingly, the doses are solid, and a good set of phones is a prescribed part of the experience.

I happen to agree with the cognitive liberty crowd, that the govt has no right to dictate how one chooses to alter their consciousness, so long as it doesn't impact others. In this regard, the psychedelics enjoy a great safety record and are among the least addictive of all mind altering drugs.