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Vinyl is not as bad as I expected.

spiritofjerry

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Surround sound music is something I can live without, but not stereo. Mono just doesn't do anything for me, at all. I don't need surround sound music to be happy.
 

Galliardist

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I listen to and enjoy quite a lot of music in mono.

Sure, better presentation helps, but if a great musician only got to record in mono, or was at their height in the mono era, I’m not going to ignore them for that.
 

Newman

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Surround sound music is something I can live without, but not stereo. Mono just doesn't do anything for me, at all. I don't need surround sound music to be happy.
Assertions of easy-to-please personal standards — are they even audiophile? :p
 

MattHooper

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That's what they were saying in 1960 about stereo.
Obviously you haven't listened to good recordings on quality equipment.
Plain stereo is just so boring and limited in it's presentation abilities.

Being acquainted with surround sound ;-)...I disagree.

I sit fairly close to my speakers and for me great stereo is already so immersive, and can do so many neato things already (relative to mono) that surround it just "a bit more of the same."

Yes the ambience in surround sound can be extend further past the stereo field to the sides and behind me, but again, I sit close enough that I'm already feeling immersed in the sound - surround just doesn't give me much more. And I don't tend to care for instruments and voices popping up behind me. Prefer the scene to be happening more from the front.

I much prefer to listen to music on my stereo vs my surround system.

(Though I like surround for movies....after all...I do that stuff for a living...and love my home theater set up. And if I want to get picked on I could mention I love 3D movies too...)
 

Sal1950

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I listen to and enjoy quite a lot of music in mono.

Sure, better presentation helps, but if a great musician only got to record in mono, or was at their height in the mono era, I’m not going to ignore them for that.
Nothing really wrong with mono, specially if your doing something else for whatever reason and you can't sit in the sweet spot. But when you can dedicate your mind to listening, nothing can pull you in and involve you in the performance like multich.. Stereo is good, 5 base channels is better, and as of now the immervise codings of Atmos, Auro, and Sony 3D is the best currently available.
Yes the ambience in surround sound can be extend further past the stereo field to the sides and behind me, but again, I sit close enough that I'm already feeling immersed in the sound - surround just doesn't give me much more. And I don't tend to care for instruments and voices popping up behind me. Prefer the scene to be happening more from the front.
That's part of the problem, we've moved way beyond the old open window on the performance paradigm. Maybe for classical that's fine but even with classical there are more engineers mixing for a conductors perspective, experimenting with different things like becoming part of the orchestra, sitting in with them. What some will chose to dismiss as gimmicky, recording engineers together with the performers have and continue to invent a whole new musical art in the form of immersive entertainment.
When it comes to modern music like rock, jazz or country, anything goes. There is no right or wrong when it comes to the presentation of entertainment. Shit man Pink Floyd and others have been doing live concerts in multhch surround sound for 40+ years, that IS what they're supposed to sound like.
I've had a multich rig going since the early 70s and witnessed the ups and downs in it's popularity. For myself I'm super excited to see the boom in immersive recording going on now in the form of Atmos, etc. It's everywhere now, from discs and downloads to streaming from almost all the majors.
Rather than blow a bunch of dough on a near 100 year old crippled tech like the LP, take the dive and bring your 2 ch rig up to the same quality level of speakers, etc; in a modern 5.2.4 or better surround rig. You'll be blown away.
 
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spiritofjerry

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Assertions of easy-to-please personal standards — are they even audiophile? :p
Hell no.

I do really enjoy Atmos for movies and music in the auditions I've heard, but being a prole living a sardine can, there ain't no way I'm fitting that gear in my modest living situation. Learning to be happy while living within your means DEFINITELY isn't audiophile.

Then again, people like this exist:
 

Galliardist

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Hell no.

I do really enjoy Atmos for movies and music in the auditions I've heard, but being a prole living a sardine can, there ain't no way I'm fitting that gear in my modest living situation. Learning to be happy while living within your means DEFINITELY isn't audiophile.

Then again, people like this exist:
Hey, I’m in the same situation and use the same excuse.

But there are people out there with full on Atmos systems in their caravans. Maybe I’m just not trying hard enough?
 

rdenney

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I have no doubt that multichannel provides a more immersive sound.

I used to sit on the back row of the mezzanine at the Lila Cockrell Theater (part of Hemisfair) in San Antonio, listening to the symphony perform week after week. That hall was a barn (3000 seats) but that was a good spot to sit and I never once felt like room effects intruded on my ability to hear the music.

I was every bit of 200 feet away from the stage.

I have also spent no shortage of time listening to the orchestra from the back row of the stage, and I can tell you I'd rather rather be out front in the cheap seats. Conductor's perspective? Uh, no. An orchestra's sound needs the room. If the recording is too dry, it's less fun to listen to than if it's hosed down with some natural reverb from the room. I just don't think multichannel is necessary for doing that. Good engineering is.

I'm also spending too much on other stuff (including tubas) to want to try to figure out how to get 13 speakers set up in my very oddly shaped room that has no walls or ceilings to mount them to, at least not where they would be needed.

Sound effects from movies are a whole other thing. Immersion means something different when watching a move filmed from 1 foot away from the actor versus listening to an orchestra 200 feet over there.

Rick "who does have surround sound on the home theater system, but assuredly not to the standard of ASR" Denney
 

Sal1950

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symphara

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That's what they were saying in 1960 about stereo.
Obviously you haven't listened to good recordings on quality equipment.
Plain stereo is just so boring and limited in it's presentation abilities.
Well that wasn’t me. I loved stereo as soon as I moved from mono, and I still love it.

I have very good quality surround sound recordings (some even reference) and quality equipment, that’s not the issue.

Multichannel music where the rears are actively involved in playing instruments is like a movie soundtrack where a significant part of the dialogue comes from the rear speakers. For you perhaps this would be “immersive”. For me it’s gimmicky and annoying, and I guess for other people too, which is why they don’t do it.

I don’t want to feel in the middle of the orchestra. That’s not how I listen to music. I want it to be in front of me. I guess most others feel the same, which is why multichannel music is a tiny niche market.

Now if they use the rear speakers for ambience only, that’s fine, but it doesn’t add much and I can just as easily do without it.

Finally, please forgive those of us who happen to not share your listening preferences. I’ll do the ashes and the mea culpa later.
 

Frank Dernie

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With a really good turntable and preamp that "wow & flutter" and background noise it's pretty much inaudible with a "normal" volume.

I began to think many people doesn't hear a real good analog system ... and maybe I understand what people said about vinyl in this topic. Maybe I need to left this as is.
I designed and "worked with" record players 45 years ago. I have yet to see anything published since which gives new information over and above what was published then by, for example, Bruel and Kjaer, who made most of the top level measuring equipment we used.

It is true most of the noise is masked a lot of the time by the music, but not all. Wow and flutter is a characteristic of the record player and/or an eccentric disc. How intrusive it is depends, as with noise, on the sort of music one listens to.

Moving coil cartridges do generally have a lower effective tip mass than MM cartridges which raises their upper frequency limit but there were excellent MM cartridges pre-CD which had a good flat FR over the full audible band, so this wasn't a real limit.
Sophisticated stylus profiles do indeed both reduce HF distortion and improve upper FR limit but again an elliptical stylus on a well engineered cartridge (as opposed to a full of BS marketing one) covers the whole audible band so I am not sure anybody would hear much difference.

Having written all this my regular turntable is a Goldmund Reference with currently an Ortofon A90 cartridge and I also have others by EMT, Roksan and the intriguingly cleverly engineered B&O 8002 so I have listened to much higher quality record player kit than most people for decades so I know the limits very well both from an engineering and a listening perspective.

The thing that I find irritating about LP playing now is how it has become cult like and the marketing BS has accelerated to infinity along with completely unjustifiable high prices which suit the myth that more expensive is always better.

People are being outrageously ripped off by so many makers treating it as a fashion business :(
 

Newman

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Well that wasn’t me. I loved stereo as soon as I moved from mono, and I still love it.

I have very good quality surround sound recordings (some even reference) and quality equipment, that’s not the issue.

Multichannel music where the rears are actively involved in playing instruments is like a movie soundtrack where a significant part of the dialogue comes from the rear speakers. For you perhaps this would be “immersive”. For me it’s gimmicky and annoying, and I guess for other people too, which is why they don’t do it.

I don’t want to feel in the middle of the orchestra. That’s not how I listen to music. I want it to be in front of me. I guess most others feel the same, which is why multichannel music is a tiny niche market.

Now if they use the rear speakers for ambience only, that’s fine, but it doesn’t add much and I can just as easily do without it.

Finally, please forgive those of us who happen to not share your listening preferences. I’ll do the ashes and the mea culpa later.

Yeah no, you can’t play that card and get away with it here. Try Stereophile Letters to the Editor. The erstwhile Ed himself will likely chime in and reinforce your biases as a reward for your having reinforced his.

OR, just on the off chance you are in learning mode, buy and read the relevant sections of Toole’s book editions1&3, and understand how unambiguous is the preference for multichannel music playback when compared to two-channel in bias-free conditions.
 

MattHooper

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Nothing really wrong with mono, specially if your doing something else for whatever reason and you can't sit in the sweet spot. But when you can dedicate your mind to listening, nothing can pull you in and involve you in the performance like multich.. Stereo is good, 5 base channels is better, and as of now the immervise codings of Atmos, Auro, and Sony 3D is the best currently available.

That's part of the problem, we've moved way beyond the old open window on the performance paradigm. Maybe for classical that's fine but even with classical there are more engineers mixing for a conductors perspective, experimenting with different things like becoming part of the orchestra, sitting in with them. What some will chose to dismiss as gimmicky, recording engineers together with the performers have and continue to invent a whole new musical art in the form of immersive entertainment.
When it comes to modern music like rock, jazz or country, anything goes. There is no right or wrong when it comes to the presentation of entertainment. Shit man Pink Floyd and others have been doing live concerts in multhch surround sound for 40+ years, that IS what they're supposed to sound like.
I've had a multich rig going since the early 70s and witnessed the ups and downs in it's popularity. For myself I'm super excited to see the boom in immersive recording going on now in the form of Atmos, etc. It's everywhere now, from discs and downloads to streaming from almost all the majors.
Rather than blow a bunch of dough on a near 100 year old crippled tech like the LP, take the dive and bring your 2 ch rig up to the same quality level of speakers, etc; in a modern 5.2.4 or better surround rig. You'll be blown away.

I agree there is no right or wrong here. That's why I'm not being dogmatic about it, just stating a preference.

I don't find surround adds much to what I already enjoy from stereo.

It's like 3D in movies. I really like it, and 3D fans will often advocate for why it's Obviously Better than non-3D movies...but plenty of people either find it a distraction or that it doesn't add to their own enjoyment/immersion in the movie. So...people have different experiences.

It's certainly great that more surround music is being explored and produced, for the audience that is enthusiastic about it.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I don't find surround adds much to what I already enjoy from stereo.
That's been my experience as well. With the few classical recordings which were recorded with Blumlein or Ambisonics microphone techniques, one could swear that there are surround speakers in use. Newer popular music often uses virtual surround (3D) audio plug-ins to synthesize this effect, and is extremely effective.
 

MattHooper

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That's been my experience as well. With the few classical recordings which were recorded with Blumlein or Ambisonics microphone techniques, one could swear that there are surround speakers in use. Newer popular music often uses virtual surround (3D) audio plug-ins to synthesize this effect, and is extremely effective.

Careful. You are stating a personal preference from your own experience. Some around here don't want you to "get away with that." ;-)
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Careful. You are stating a personal preference from your own experience. Some around here don't want you to "get away with that." ;-)
I have full and verified documentation from tests where my brain was patched into analysis equipment which proves my personal experiences were real. Unfortunately my brain didn't survive the the intrusion, so I am what I am now. :confused:
 

mhardy6647

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That's what they were saying in 1960 about stereo.

Not without reason, in some cases. :)

1634846660053.png


I... ahem... I might actually have a copy of this album downstairs.
As my father would have said [to me], "Are you bragging or complaining?"
;)
 

Newman

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Careful. You are stating a personal preference from your own experience. Some around here don't want you to "get away with that." ;-)
Wrong. The bit one doesn't "get away with" is holding a personal preference that contradicts the science, but pretending anyone with a view aligned with the science is purely stating a personal preference. With words like, "please forgive those of us who happen to not share your listening preferences."

So, perhaps you are the one who should be careful, and check before misrepresenting what I do or don't "want". And just a tip: drop the sarcasm. It's never a good look.
 
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