Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

[Geert]

the notion of only minutes or so in breakin is absolute nonsense with woofers, some speakers have a thick stiff laquer on the spider.

Don't think the typical hifi woofer is using this kind of spider, it's more common for PA speakers.

 

[YSC]

Don't think the typical hifi woofer is using this kind of spider, it's more common for PA speakers.

same here, even if it does, I doubt that will take more than a few hours or so to stabalize to not measurable domain, let alone audible. Definitely nowhere near the claimed 100s of hours

 

[snaimpally]

I used to think speaker break-in was total BS. Some time back, I got into car audio (DIYMA). I often bought used equipment (including drivers) from other DIYMA members but occasionally bought new drivers from Parts Express, Madisound, etc. I was shocked to discover that I could hear when the new drivers were broken in. I had always thought speaker break-in was a total myth. I was not expecting it and wasn't listening for any changes but there would come a day when I would hear a difference. When it happened for multiple drivers, then I realized it was not a myth. The soundstage would take on a more 3-dimensional nature.

The frequency response (FR) did not change, but the human ear can hear more than just the FR. Floyd Toole's research at the NRC showed that the human ear can hear quite subtle differences in FR so it is not inconceivable that the human ear can hear other subtleties beyond the FR. Current measurement equipment can't measure everything that the ear can hear. I'm sure someone will come out with a white paper at AES or a PhD dissertation on how to measure new parameters. Just because current measurement equipment, and that too, just FR measurement equipment, can't measure differences doesn't mean something doesn't exist, it just means we don't yet have the equipment to accurately measure what the human ear can hear.

 

[pozz]

Read the Klippel presentation to the AES for a sense of what break in entails. It clarifies why for example Carsten Tinggaard, ex CTO of Tymphany and current partner at Purifi, can say that drivers never finish breaking in. Foremost, what we are talking about is a mechanical process that affects decisions about design, manufacturing, QC, longevity and stability.

"According to engineers it only takes a few minutes, according to audiophiles it's hundreds of hours"

It's somewhere in between for some speakers. Most people probably don't notice the changing sound over some hours while some take notice of the change. Muted dynamics and a bit weak bass would be the most noticeable differences compared to a broken in speaker.

View attachment 157671

Don't misuse the data you are given. There is no link to what you claim are the audible effects.

Perhaps we don't have a smoking gun sort of presentation that would satisfy everyone, yet.

 

[krabapple]

I used to think speaker break-in was total BS. Some time back, I got into car audio (DIYMA). I often bought used equipment (including drivers) from other DIYMA members but occasionally bought new drivers from Parts Express, Madisound, etc. I was shocked to discover that I could hear when the new drivers were broken in. I had always thought speaker break-in was a total myth. I was not expecting it and wasn't listening for any changes but there would come a day when I would hear a difference. When it happened for multiple drivers, then I realized it was not a myth. The soundstage would take on a more 3-dimensional nature.

The frequency response (FR) did not change, but the human ear can hear more than just the FR. Floyd Toole's research at the NRC showed that the human ear can hear quite subtle differences in FR so it is not inconceivable that the human ear can hear other subtleties beyond the FR. Current measurement equipment can't measure everything that the ear can hear. I'm sure someone will come out with a white paper at AES or a PhD dissertation on how to measure new parameters. Just because current measurement equipment, and that too, just FR measurement equipment, can't measure differences doesn't mean something doesn't exist, it just means we don't yet have the equipment to accurately measure what the human ear can hear.

Are you done?

 

[Sandthemall]

Speaker break in is a real thing. You need to hear this strange story.

I recently purchased some Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. When I opened the boxes, I realized there were no speaker grilles. I also made a note that the speakers were upside down in the box. The box clearly said ‘open the other side’ and I unwittingly opened the wrong side…but because the speakers were upside down, this actually worked out. The speakers had some minor damage…this lead me to believe that they used…but all the blemishes were on the top of the speakers. Could this be the result of being shipped upside down? Anyway, I called the retailer and they assured me they would take care of the situation first thing Monday (I got the speakers on a Friday).

So I figured I would just listen to them the whole weekend. Which I did. I payed the crap outta them. They sounded great! I had heard these speakers needed extensive break in time but I was smitten with what I was hearing. I returned the speakers on Tuesday (after about 20 hours of use) and took possession of the replacements the very same day.

The new ones were right-side-up in the box. The grilles were present. The accessory packaging was zip-lock sealed…this was not the case with the previous speaker. The new speakers were cosmetically perfect. How did they sound? Terrible! Completely and totally not the same as the previous Turnberrys. Not even close. It was a stark, slap in the face…not so happy experience. Weak bass, thin treble…entirely lacking in detail and texture. I’m 12 hours into these Turnberrys and things are starting to sound quite a bit better...closer to what I heard before. But that really made me believe I had probably got a used or demo speaker the first time around.

My previous Salk speakers had very little difference in sound after break in. But I do believe it was just too subtle and over a long period of time that I just didn’t notice. But some speakers, like Tannoy, need a substantial break-in time. They are practically different speakers after break-in: night and day.

 

[Streamc]

No

 

[YSC]

Speaker break in is a real thing. You need to hear this strange story.

I recently purchased some Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. When I opened the boxes, I realized there were no speaker grilles. I also made a note that the speakers were upside down in the box. The box clearly said ‘open the other side’ and I unwittingly opened the wrong side…but because the speakers were upside down, this actually worked out. The speakers had some minor damage…this lead me to believe that they used…but all the blemishes were on the top of the speakers. Could this be the result of being shipped upside down? Anyway, I called the retailer and they assured me they would take care of the situation first thing Monday (I got the speakers on a Friday).

So I figured I would just listen to them the whole weekend. Which I did. I payed the crap outta them. They sounded great! I had heard these speakers needed extensive break in time but I was smitten with what I was hearing. I retuned the speakers on Tuesday and took possession of the replacements the very same day.

The new ones were right-side-up in the box. The grilles were present. The accessory packaging was zip-lock sealed…this was not the case with the previous speaker. The new speakers were cosmetically perfect. How did they sound? Terrible! Completely and totally not the same as the previous Turnberrys. It was a stark, slap in the face…not so happy experience. I’m 12 hours into these Turnberrys and things are starting to sound quite a bit better. A little closer to what I heard before. But that really made me believe I had probably got a used speaker the first time around.

My previous Salk speakers had very little difference in sound after break in. But I believe it was just too subtle and over a long period of time that I just didn’t notice. But some speakers, like Tannoy, need a substantial break-in time. They are practically different speakers after break-in.

Ok story heard, but any measurements showing the same night and day differences?

 

[MarkWinston]

Speaker break in is a real thing. You need to hear this strange story.

I recently purchased some Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. When I opened the boxes, I realized there were no speaker grilles. I also made a note that the speakers were upside down in the box. The box clearly said ‘open the other side’ and I unwittingly opened the wrong side…but because the speakers were upside down, this actually worked out. The speakers had some minor damage…this lead me to believe that they used…but all the blemishes were on the top of the speakers. Could this be the result of being shipped upside down? Anyway, I called the retailer and they assured me they would take care of the situation first thing Monday (I got the speakers on a Friday).

So I figured I would just listen to them the whole weekend. Which I did. I payed the crap outta them. They sounded great! I had heard these speakers needed extensive break in time but I was smitten with what I was hearing. I returned the speakers on Tuesday (after about 20 hours of use) and took possession of the replacements the very same day.

The new ones were right-side-up in the box. The grilles were present. The accessory packaging was zip-lock sealed…this was not the case with the previous speaker. The new speakers were cosmetically perfect. How did they sound? Terrible! Completely and totally not the same as the previous Turnberrys. Not even close. It was a stark, slap in the face…not so happy experience. Weak bass, thin treble…entirely lacking in detail and texture. I’m 12 hours into these Turnberrys and things are starting to sound quite a bit better...closer to what I heard before. But that really made me believe I had probably got a used or demo speaker the first time around.

My previous Salk speakers had very little difference in sound after break in. But I do believe it was just too subtle and over a long period of time that I just didn’t notice. But some speakers, like Tannoy, need a substantial break-in time. They are practically different speakers after break-in: night and day.

Dont waste your time here, its useless talking to some people that clearly doesnt believe in break in. They look for differences in graphs that barely show a difference but dont look at other graphs like spectral decay where most of the differences are. I dont believe any before and after decay charts has been put forth in debates like these and if anyone knows of any, point me in that direction.

 

[Beave]

Dont waste your time here, its useless talking to some people that clearly doesnt believe in break in. They look for differences in graphs that barely show a difference but dont look at other graphs like spectral decay where most of the differences are. I dont believe any before and after decay charts has been put forth in debates like these and if anyone knows of any, point me in that direction.

So "graphs like spectral decay" are "where most of the differences are," but you don't believe "any before and after decay charts has (sic) been put forth in debates like these."

So which is it?

How do you know that spectral decay graphs are where most of the differences are when you haven't ever seen any before and after decay charts showing a difference?

 

[MarkWinston]

So "graphs like spectral decay" are "where most of the differences are," but you don't believe "any before and after decay charts has (sic) been put forth in debates like these."

So which is it?

How do you know that spectral decay graphs are where most of the differences are when you haven't ever seen any before and after decay charts showing a difference?

How do you know that there isnt any difference in the decay charts since you have not seen any? FR rules eh? FR is end all be all eh?

 

[Beave]

How do you know that there isnt any difference in the decay charts since you have not seen any? FR rules eh? FR is end all be all eh?

You're the one who made the self-contradictory claim, not me, so it's up to you to provide support for your claim. But then again, you admitted there is no support for your claim, hence my post.

Do you know that decay charts are related to frequency response?

 

[MarkWinston]

You're the one who made the self-contradictory claim, not me, so it's up to you to provide support for your claim. But then again, you admitted there is no support for your claim, hence my post.

Do you know that decay charts are related to frequency response?

Not by time. FR dont show how long the sound lingers on. Huge difference. In this sense, they are not even remotely related. FR shows what frequencies your fart hit, spectral decay shows how long your fart went on for every frequency it hit.

 

[Beave]

Well, there's definitely something smelly in the air here.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Welcome,

Speaker break in is a real thing. You need to hear this strange story.

No, we don't need to hear this anecdote and that story is not strange at all: we've red it a thousand time before. It tells nothing but:
- Audible memory doesn't last that long.
- You were biased to begin with, believing burn-in was needed anyway.

But some speakers, like Tannoy, need a substantial break-in time. They are practically different speakers after break-in: night and day.

If there are any night and day differences, then these have to be measurable at some point.

Buy another pair of Tannoy and measure one against one that is supposed to be "burned-in" and see if night and day is still there.

Trust be told: some could swap a new speaker with the "burned-in" one in your sleep that you won't even notice it happened.

At the end, I'm not saying that burn in would or wouldn't be real. But if it is (real), then it has to be proven by something a touch more reliable than randon anecdotes.

 

[HuubFranssen]

I really like this forum and every day I look at the new measurement-posts from Amir. The measurements are a valuable addition to the real truth around good-sounding hifi. In my opinion a dac or amplifier MUST measure well before you try to figure out how it sounds. Some think a Topping D10 sounds the same as a D90se, the only difference is the feature set. Well boys, I can tell you that a D90se combined with a PRE90 sounds absolutely stunning and a D10 or D50s certainly does not. I had them all. My conclusion: part of the truth can be found here but don’t stop listening yourself. BTW, my amplifier is a Hypex NCore 500mp box. I really read this forum very well.
Selecting the right speaker is a bit more difficult. Toole recommends a carousel to compare them blind but no-one has a carousel. After a year of trying not-too-expensive speakers of several brands (i.e. Dynaudio Contour 20i, JBL HDI1600) the unbelievable ATC SCM11 V3 was the winner. So I decided to climb up the ATC ladder. Because I’m on pension the next logical step was the SCM19V2, with an ATC C1 subwoofer. I bought the speakers new, in the Netherlands ATC is not that expensive, with some discount 2600 euro. After installing I noticed that the matte finish of one of the speakers was not flawless. I mentioned it to the reseller and he promised me a new pair. They would arrive after 3 months so I had to listen to the first pair for these 3 months. No problem, I thought.
The first week the sound of the SCM19’s was extremely disappointing, I was so desperate that I almost decided to buy the SCM11 again. But there seemed to be some progression. Every night I put on Radio Paradise to keep the speakers running. And step by step the sound grew and I realised that I only had to wait. And indeed, after another week or so I was able to relax and enjoy stunning music, exactly what I hoped for.
After 3 months I received the mail from the reseller that the new speakers had arrived. Next day I drove to the other side of the country (160 km’s), he inspected the old speakers agreeing that the finish was not perfect, and I drove back with 2 new boxes. Back home I saw the the finish was perfect matte white and I mounted the speakers on the stands. Nothing was changed, only the speakers.
It was an interesting experiment… would they sound exactly like the old speakers after 3 months? In that case burning-in would be a myth. With the first tones of Radio Paradise, and later my favourite tracks, I knew: they sounded like shit again. And only now, after weeks of constantly running, I am happy. The music sounds as stunning as I was used to.

 

[DSJR]

HMM. I think I can speak (sorry!) a little regarding ATC's and old Spendors (bare with me please...)

Old Spendor BC1's (now an appreciating collector's item) DO change with time, as the heavy doped cone gradually sags on its suspension and goes off centre, often causing rubbing. Inverting said driver usually fixes it, at least temporarily. It's said ny a restorer.designer 'who knows' that said speakers would almost certainly be well out of spec by now (even the early film crossover caps drift he says), so just maybe the fact that speakers can change a little with time is true - THEY GRADUALLY GET WORSE!!!!!

Now to ATC. I'm not sure if the poster above is aware of how ATC drivers are all but 'thrashed' at the factory when they're first assembled. At least they used to be (I witnessed it first hand). the thinking was that if they could withstand this punishment before being assembled into their boxes, they'd take anything the final user could chuck at them short of an amp going DC. The cone/short-coil assembly on the 19/20 bass drivers is very heavy indeed and needs to be tautly suspended (didn't stop one of my early 20ASL Pro drivers going off-centre after several years (just out of the warranty too ).

My ears being what they are now (acute Rhinitis clogs the ear canals up regularly and I perceive my stereo's differently every few days), in my case at least, my main stereo goes from room-bass heavy to 'muffled with tinsel' almost cyclically and I've kind of got used to it now (who ever heard of an ex-hifi industry bod with hearing aids, but I can see it coming ).

ATC 19's are intentiuonally bass light (I do like the 19A though) and NOTHING can change that no matter how many hours you give them. As far as this brand is concerned, I'd respectfully suggest it's the end user getting used to them as well as maybe experimenting with room position. My passive 20's bought from new didn't change at all apart from everything opening out with a more powerful amplifier which passive examples of this brand seem to need (the 11's cope moderately well with traditional domestic amps though I discovered).

 

[HuubFranssen]

Hi DSJR, thanks for the reply. The crucial part of my post is the change to new speakers of exactly the same brand, type and colour. Of course people could think that the audio-memory is capable of rolling back to a specific time point. Also people could think it is just a lie. That‘s (forum-) life.

 

[MarkWinston]

I really like this forum and every day I look at the new measurement-posts from Amir. The measurements are a valuable addition to the real truth around good-sounding hifi. In my opinion a dac or amplifier MUST measure well before you try to figure out how it sounds. Some think a Topping D10 sounds the same as a D90se, the only difference is the feature set. Well boys, I can tell you that a D90se combined with a PRE90 sounds absolutely stunning and a D10 or D50s certainly does not. I had them all. My conclusion: part of the truth can be found here but don’t stop listening yourself. BTW, my amplifier is a Hypex NCore 500mp box. I really read this forum very well.
Selecting the right speaker is a bit more difficult. Toole recommends a carousel to compare them blind but no-one has a carousel. After a year of trying not-too-expensive speakers of several brands (i.e. Dynaudio Contour 20i, JBL HDI1600) the unbelievable ATC SCM11 V3 was the winner. So I decided to climb up the ATC ladder. Because I’m on pension the next logical step was the SCM19V2, with an ATC C1 subwoofer. I bought the speakers new, in the Netherlands ATC is not that expensive, with some discount 2600 euro. After installing I noticed that the matte finish of one of the speakers was not flawless. I mentioned it to the reseller and he promised me a new pair. They would arrive after 3 months so I had to listen to the first pair for these 3 months. No problem, I thought.
The first week the sound of the SCM19’s was extremely disappointing, I was so desperate that I almost decided to buy the SCM11 again. But there seemed to be some progression. Every night I put on Radio Paradise to keep the speakers running. And step by step the sound grew and I realised that I only had to wait. And indeed, after another week or so I was able to relax and enjoy stunning music, exactly what I hoped for.
After 3 months I received the mail from the reseller that the new speakers had arrived. Next day I drove to the other side of the country (160 km’s), he inspected the old speakers agreeing that the finish was not perfect, and I drove back with 2 new boxes. Back home I saw the the finish was perfect matte white and I mounted the speakers on the stands. Nothing was changed, only the speakers.
It was an interesting experiment… would they sound exactly like the old speakers after 3 months? In that case burning-in would be a myth. With the first tones of Radio Paradise, and later my favourite tracks, I knew: they sounded like shit again. And only now, after weeks of constantly running, I am happy. The music sounds as stunning as I was used to.

Exactly what happened to me with the Diamond 12.2. The vinyl on my first set was pelling off at the bottom and dried glue around the woofer's dust cap was peeling off. I noticed this after 1 week when I was wiping down the speakers. It initially sounded all over the place but after a few sessions spirited listening sessions above average listening volumes (90db - 95db average), the thing went from zero to hero. Just in that short period of time. And what a change it was. When I recieved my second pair of 12.2s, it sounded like nothing the first pair did. But I knew what to do, turn it up real loud with some bass boosted tracks and sure enough after a few sessions it sounded great again. Nothing changed, just the speakers, just like your case. You either use time (and hope your drivers hit xmax or near xmax with certain tracks, which it likely wont), or you 'force' it to hit xmax quick with loud volumes and dynamic bassy tracks. Certain speakers Ive own do not break in, they either sound good out of the box or sound shit, even after 6 months of usage. PSB Imagine X2T for one, it sounded like horse poop all the way till I sold it and nothing changed on that speaker even after 6 months. My OG LS50 didnt change either with time, they sounded good right out the box. Wharfedales on the hand, ALL Wharfedales Ive owned, improves dramatically after broken in.

 

[BDWoody]

You need to hear this strange story.

You seem to think we haven't heard 1000 variations on this theme.

Lots of claims. No evidence. That's what I hear.