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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

A.wayne

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Inconsistencies in your audio system sound is more than just mental instability :)

Humidity and temp will affect some loudspeakers more than others and check if you have any noise in your current setup, you need to tend to it ..

audible back ground noises at wide open gain can be helped with a proper grounding scheme between units and will go along way in consistency of sound reproduced ..



Regards
 

raistlin65

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Is there a study that shows the impact our brain has on our hearing? I'm actually wondering how big it is.
This research is enlightening

We hear what we expect to hear
 

raistlin65

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Yes, it's not a "block", it just doesn't show the comments to the person who put you on the ignore list. Unless you ignore him as well, you'll still see his comments/posts.

Always love it when an argumentative subjectivist blocks me on an audio forum.

It's an incredible gift. It's essentially a free pass for me to call out their bullshit, without them responding to me with more audiophile nonsense.
 

Newman

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This research is enlightening

We hear what we expect to hear
Yet another convincing nail in the already-well-nailed coffin in which we need to officially bury the idea that sighted comparison listening is any kind of pathway to discovery about the sound waves from music playback gear.

And, by extension, bury all notion that the sighted listening audio gear reviewer has anything to offer the audio gear consumer, other than artful deception of a willing subject.
 

f1shb0n3

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This research is enlightening

We hear what we expect to hear
Ironically this gives us an opportunity to use that as a mind hack - if you believe this new DAC, interconnect, speaker or power cable will improve your system’s sound go ahead buy it and enjoy the difference it makes :) Just don’t spend an arm and a leg for it.
 

Daverich4

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Ironically this gives us an opportunity to use that as a mind hack - if you believe this new DAC, interconnect, speaker or power cable will improve your system’s sound go ahead buy it and enjoy the difference it makes :) Just don’t spend an arm and a leg for it.
At least in my case, I suspect some of the enjoyment comes FROM spending an arm and a leg for it.
 

MarkS

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And, by extension, bury all notion that the sighted listening audio gear reviewer has anything to offer the audio gear consumer, other than artful deception of a willing subject.
This is much too strong.

The other day I listened to a recording that I fully expected to be good (based on the record company's excellent and well-deserved reputation), but it was actually bad. I then looked up reviews of it, and they all said that the recording was bad (and what a surprise that was).

Furthermore, I have heard plenty of bad speakers. I know they are bad by listening to them. Measurements that I look up later show that these speakers are indeed bad.

Expectation bias definitely exists, but it cannot totally overwhelm reality.
 

Newman

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Expectation bias operates unconsciously too.

It is not unusual for people to expect to hear no difference with cables, then hear a difference, and think it must be real then. Not so.

Furthermore, the total process of perception generation is multi-faceted. In plainer English, there are numerous steps from raw sensory data to fully formed conscious perception, not just expectation bias. And we are hard-wired to ‘assign’ the properties in the perception to being in the raw data. So strongly hard-wired that we never doubt its ‘reality’.

The idea that reality cannot be ‘totally overwhelmed’ is pure wishful thinking. It is like a masking effect: it only has to be dominant, it does not need to eliminate the raw data. And dominant is exactly what it is.
 
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MarkS

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There is a big difference between judging speakers with clearly different frequency responses and radiation patterns, and the teeny-tiny effects of cable resistance or electronics noise/distortion.
 

Newman

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Not big enough to counter expectation bias and other perceptual filters.

Example: a test involving a large dipole speaker and a small front-firing box speaker: these would meet your “clearly different frequency responses and radiation patterns”. Yet, in judging them, the first one was much preferred in sighted listening, and the second one was clearly preferred when listeners can’t see them.

See?
 

Spkrdctr

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Nothing compares to my brothers old Sansui Quad receiver! Well, back then it was awesome, now? not so much. Those were fun times though. New different equipment coming out and it all sounded very good at that time. Bring back the Quadraphonic sound! Oh, wait, did I just age myself? :)
 

MattHooper

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Yet another convincing nail in the already-well-nailed coffin in which we need to officially bury the idea that sighted comparison listening is any kind of pathway to discovery about the sound waves from music playback gear.

And, by extension, bury all notion that the sighted listening audio gear reviewer has anything to offer the audio gear consumer, other than artful deception of a willing subject.

^^^^ And here we see yet again the naive overreach concerning the reliability of our senses and perception.

It's similar to leaping from studies showing we experience optical illusions to "therefore our sense of sight is wholly illusory and unreliable."

And yet, we manage to find our way out the front door whenever we want. And navigate the world mostly successfully using our sight and other senses.

It reminds me of the "Philosophy 101 Student Phenomenon," where a student encounters the case for skepticism for the first time, e.g. Descartes challenges to "what we can actually know." They get so besotted with this "discovery" that it can be hard to defend statements of knowledge that they start applying this skepticism everywhere, showing their friends "you can't really have the knowledge you think you have!"
It's a giddy feeling having the insight that turns over so many other people's apple cart.

But they don't realize the hole they've dug by pulling the rug out from beneath "knowledge." Without building up a concept of "knowledge" WITHIN the confines of PRACTICAL skepticism, they actually leave themselves incoherent. (If we "can't "really" know anything in the empirical realm, how would this skepticism account for, say, people's ability to reliably unlock their smartphones with their password code? If it isn't "knowledge" of their codes in any practical sense accounting for this, what could account for it?)

There's a similar thing that happens in these inferences from experiments cited about our perception, to claims about our perception being so unreliable as to "throw out X, Y and Z as utterly illusory or unwarranted."

Similar theories of predictive coding and the like are posited for our vision - for instance many of the famous optical illusions of how we misinterpret colors and shading in CERTAIN circumstances suggest our brains are working on expectations. But does that warrant the inference "therefore we can not rely on our vision - it's all just illusion and expectation effects?" Of course not. Sense like our vision are successful in allowing us to navigate the world! You have to be able to explain the SUCCESSES, and you can't do that merely by pointing to the particular instances in which vision "fails" to be accurate. It's amazing how often this obvious point passes by those who are thinking only about how an example bolsters skepticism.

So back to theories like predictive coding (as indicated in that study), the basic idea that our brain "constructs" reality "based on expectations."
Well, how could our vision "work" if these "expectations" themselves weren't somehow reliable or reflecting reality? And how do we build this reliable-enough model of "expectations" if our senses were wholly unreliable? Clearly, since we can not be born with some pre-set interpretation of every novel thing we will encounter, our senses, like sight, must be delivering a base level of accurate-enough information which build those expectations in the first place.

Optical illusion experiments uncover the times when this feedback scheme can "get it wrong" but that's actually an insight along the way to the bigger understanding of how we "get so much right!"

Same with the sense-of-hearing study cited here. Some look at this and draw the purely skeptical conclusion "well guys, gotta throw in the towel on our hearing, it's all expectation bias and illusion, can't trust it!" Which is just going with 1/2 the story.

Of course they don't REALLY disbelieve in the total unreliability of their senses - they get through the day just fine with them. But as a stick to poke at purely subjective listener reports, it seems to edge towards the Philosophy 101 Student syndrome, of special pleading. "Uncontrolled, sighted listening is entirely unreliable and can be thrown out." It's actually an untenable idea if you follow this through (really, the only thing that can account for my saying a Revel Salon produces more realism and dynamic impact than my iphone speakers is illusion-born-bias?).

Like I've said before on this:

It's one thing to say "Our perceptions can be in error" but another to say "our perception always leads to error." The first is tenable and useful, the second untenable overreach.

Similarly it's one thing to say: "Sighted listening tests are less reliable than controlled listening tests." (See scientific studies showing this).

But another to say "Sighted listening is WHOLLY unreliable, the results are simply illusory bullshit" (and thus any such accounts are to be rejected, especially sighted listening reports).

The former is tenable, the latter in any practical sense is untenable. And yet the latter sense is often implied or made explicitly in the critique of sighted listening and of course subjective reviewing.
 
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Killingbeans

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That's the thing. Sighted listening tests are a coarse measuring tool that works just fine when the risk of error is small enough.

When the tweeter died on one of my speakers it sounded very weird, and there was no way in hell I was imagining things.

If you ask me, whether or not a sighted listening test is useful depends completely on the consequences of your conclusions. If you are just tinkering at home and your actions bring joy regardless the outcome, feel free to draw whatever conclusions you want. But if you are an authority figure who's conclusions impact major financial decisions among your followers, you'd damn better supplement the listening with as many measurements you can and make the margin of error as narrow as possible.
 

elvisizer

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If it isn't "knowledge" of their codes in any practical sense accounting for this, what could account for it?
everytime you interact with your phone it's an illusion from an evil demon.
i mean that's the whole point of this level of skepticism- if you grant that an evil demon can deceive our senses then there's no reason to believe anything based on senses- the world is the matrix basically and everything we perceive is illusion.

And like you said, after you realize this you really should move on to "ok if that's actually happening then there's probably nothing we can do about it, so the logical thing to do is treat most sensory perceptions as real" after about 5 minutes, maybe a couple of hours at most if you're stoned.
 

q3cpma

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^^^^ And here we see yet again the naive overreach concerning the reliability of our senses and perception.

It's similar to leaping from studies showing we experience optical illusions to "therefore our sense of sight is wholly illusory and unreliable."

And yet, we manage to find our way out the front door whenever we want. And navigate the world mostly successfully using our sight and other senses.

It reminds me of the "Philosophy 101 Student Phenomenon," where a student encounters the case for skepticism for the first time, e.g. Descartes challenges to "what we can actually know." They get so besotted with this "discovery" that it can be hard to defend statements of knowledge that they start applying this skepticism everywhere, showing their friends "you can't really have the knowledge you think you have!"
It's a giddy feeling having the insight that turns over so many other people's apple cart.

But they don't realize the hole they've dug by pulling the rug out from beneath "knowledge." Without building up a concept of "knowledge" WITHIN the confines of PRACTICAL skepticism, they actually leave themselves incoherent. (If we "can't "really" know anything in the empirical realm, how would this skepticism account for, say, people's ability to reliably unlock their smartphones with their password code? If it isn't "knowledge" of their codes in any practical sense accounting for this, what could account for it?)

There's a similar thing that happens in these inferences from experiments cited about our perception, to claims about our perception being so unreliable as to "throw out X, Y and Z as utterly illusory or unwarranted."

Similar theories of predictive coding and the like are posited for our vision - for instance many of the famous optical illusions of how we misinterpret colors and shading in CERTAIN circumstances suggest our brains are working on expectations. But does that warrant the inference "therefore we can not rely on our vision - it's all just illusion and expectation effects?" Of course not. Sense like our vision are successful in allowing us to navigate the world! You have to be able to explain the SUCCESSES, and you can't do that merely by pointing to the particular instances in which vision "fails" to be accurate. It's amazing how often this obvious point passes by those who are thinking only about how an example bolsters skepticism.

So back to theories like predictive coding (as indicated in that study), the basic idea that our brain "constructs" reality "based on expectations."
Well, how could our vision "work" if these "expectations" themselves weren't somehow reliable or reflecting reality? And how do we build this reliable-enough model of "expectations" if our senses were wholly unreliable? Clearly, since we can not be born with some pre-set interpretation of every novel thing we will encounter, our senses, like sight, must be delivering a base level of accurate-enough information which build those expectations in the first place.

Optical illusion experiments uncover the times when this feedback scheme can "get it wrong" but that's actually an insight along the way to the bigger understanding of how we "get so much right!"

Same with the sense-of-hearing study cited here. Some look at this and draw the purely skeptical conclusion "well guys, gotta throw in the towel on our hearing, it's all expectation bias and illusion, can't trust it!" Which is just going with 1/2 the story.

Of course they don't REALLY disbelieve in the total unreliability of their senses - they get through the day just fine with them. But as a stick to poke at purely subjective listener reports, it seems to edge towards the Philosophy 101 Student syndrome, of special pleading. "Uncontrolled, sighted listening is entirely unreliable and can be thrown out." It's actually an untenable idea if you follow this through (really, the only thing that can account for my saying a Revel Salon produces more realism and dynamic impact than my iphone speakers is illusion-born-bias?).

Like I've said before on this:

It's one thing to say "Our perceptions can be in error" but another to say "our perception always leads to error." The first is tenable and useful, the second untenable overreach.

Similarly it's one thing to say: "Sighted listening tests are less reliable than controlled listening tests." (See scientific studies showing this).

But another to say "Sighted listening is WHOLLY unreliable, the results are simply illusory bullshit" (and thus any such accounts are to be rejected, especially sighted listening reports).

The former is tenable, the latter in any practical sense is untenable. And yet the latter sense is often implied or made explicitly in the critique of sighted listening and of course subjective reviewing.
Man, don't you love hearing yourself talk. All based on false analogies and handwaving like equating our sensorial reliability concerning something as vital as sight of near objects and the assessment of sound quality on relatively artificial material (music). Or a big strawman made of solipsism and other intellectual impostures/traps.
It's one thing to say "Our perceptions can be in error" but another to say "our perception always leads to error." The first is tenable and useful, the second untenable overreach.
You seem to be natively English speaking, so I doubt I have to explain that the concept of reliability doesn't correspond to either case: you can't be "reliable once", only always or always minus a known probability of error. Unless you know that error margin, you can't even say "less reliable".
 
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killdozzer

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@MattHooper I think you're wrong. Completely discarding and disregarding sighted listening test has nothing to do with the fact that they always lead to error. It's just that since reliability can't be established you throw them all out the window, yes, the proverbial baby with the birth water.

Some of your sighted listening tests may very well confirm the exact same thing that the blind test would tell you. But it's random and thus unreliable. It's like Amir said on YouTube on the subject of DBT; if you toss a coin and guess it's head, you can't conclude that you can predict tosses. So the fact that some of your sighted tests might be right is, sadly perhaps, not a reason not to throw them all out the window. Since you can't discern which sighted tests were the "correct" ones, the unbiased ones, you can't use any of them. That's why they're useless even when they're accurate. You can't make reliable statements and judgements based on them so you really have no use of them.

The right judgements in sighted test are, if nothing else, arbitrary.
 

killdozzer

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I've been an audiophile for 50 years and I've heard a lot of systems. IMO the idea that a home system should recreate the experience of a live performance is nonsense. It can't happen. Reason why is that a home audio system is speakers in your room and a live musical performance is real instruments being played in a real venue by live musicians located in three dimensional space. The first thing cannot reproduce the second.
Any more than the best 4K TV with the best home theater system can reproduce the experience of actual military combat.
I also like to keep these strictly separated. The recording of music is the recording of music, not the actual event. And going to the SPL levels of a live event would be simply crazy. I went to an XX concert (it's bass heavy for those who don't know the band), it had so much bass that my trousers flapped like a flag on my legs. Having that in my house at that level?? Not a chance.
 
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