Audio-gd Master 7 Singularity Review (DAC)

[amirm]

Looks like the Review Index hasn't been updated?

Yes there is a lag there.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I know, I usually download the image so then I can rotate it with Windows Photo Viewer

Yes, but the resolution of the text is borderline for that.

 

[amirm]

Resolution used to be great. But then I allowed large images to be uploaded to the forum. To keep people from uploading 100 megabyte images I had to out a redolution limit above which the system resized the image. This bar graph has very high resolution so now getting resized making it blurry. So kind of stuck right now until I think of a solution.

 

[raif71]

Resolution used to be great. But then I allowed large images to be uploaded to the forum. To keep people from uploading 100 megabyte images I had to out a redolution limit above which the system resized the image. This bar graph has very high resolution so now getting resized making it blurry. So kind of stuck right now until I think of a solution.

I hope you get a good resolution on the solution

 

[amirm]

OK, put in a fix that allows the bar graph now embed in full size:

Click on it and it will get larger. If you have a really high resolution display, you should be able to read it all. If not, just right click, save. Then on Windows photo viewer lets you properly enlarge it or rotate it and then view.

 

[TCD333]

Yes, that was my thinking when I purchased my M7 with all discrete transistor circuits

My dual setup where I could change between two DAC's from my amp's remote I had the idea not all music needed the coloration. But several month down the road I found that metall/rock/blues and simpler accustic singer/songwriter all benefitted from the M7 in my setup with ATC speakers.

Now it would be nice if one could figure out/agree on how to measure what are perceived as pleasant distortion in hifi products and create a chart similar to the SINAD table.



Total of 8 pcs
View attachment 152468

Edit: My understanding they are two in parallel with true balanced design. That might explain why the RCA measure so different from balanced line out?

Yes the DACs are arranged 4 / ch in parallel / balanced config. As mentioned previously the OP stage is described as zero NFB (discrete) and what this generally implies is some sort of grounded base stage followed by a buffer for each phase. What this also generally implies is that there is no phase 'summing' aka the last opamp in a typical ESS / AKM OP stage which combines the two phases and converts the bal DAC OP to SE. With the M7 it's very likely each DAC phase is I-V'd, buffered and sent to OP separately. As mentioned the ZFB OP stage makes a lot of distortion and it is even order dominant (H2 highest) but this is reduced when balanced OP is used by even order cancellation of the two phases (in the measuring device).
This DAC's SE and Bal OP's will, IME sound different and I'd say the Bal OP would be better.

It's a pity they didn't do a better job of the ZFB analog stages, if you you know what you are doing it's possible to get distortion really low and the resultant sound does improve significantly.

I guess as they say, it is what it is and FWIW, probably not a bad match to go with ATC's as good as they are, they can be pretty ruthless on poor material. Something like a D90 with ATC's might be too much of a microscope for a lot of the music out there.

TCD

 

[JRG123]

OK, put in a fix that allows the bar graph now embed in full size:

Click on it and it will get larger. If you have a really high resolution display, you should be able to read it all. If not, just right click, save. Then on Windows photo viewer lets you properly enlarge it or rotate it and then view.

Thank you very much, Sir; I can see every detail

 

[Doodski]

OK, put in a fix that allows the bar graph now embed in full size:

Click on it and it will get larger. If you have a really high resolution display, you should be able to read it all. If not, just right click, save. Then on Windows photo viewer lets you properly enlarge it or rotate it and then view.

That works very well on my old notebook @ 1366x768. Desktop pooder is on the repair bench so can't test that.

 

[Monk_minor]

This was finally the review that got me to register. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have been following Amir's reviews from a very early point. I remember when you didn't need a magnifying glass to read the SINAD chart .

I bought into the Audio-gd koolaid a few years back and I remember reading your NFB-28 review (that's the model I had) and immediately turning around and selling mine because I felt ashamed and like I had been duped.

After seeing this review (and all the Audio-gd fails in between) I just wanted to say thanks again. I'm glad that companies like this are being put in the spotlight.

 

[Victoria]

This was finally the review that got me to register. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have been following Amir's reviews from a very early point. I remember when you didn't need a magnifying glass to read the SINAD chart .

I bought into the Audio-gd koolaid a few years back and I remember reading your NFB-28 review (that's the model I had) and immediately turning around and selling mine because I felt ashamed and like I had been duped.

After seeing this review (and all the Audio-gd fails in between) I just wanted to say thanks again. I'm glad that companies like this are being put in the spotlight.

Oof. Welcome to the forum! And good on you for actually recognising that you’ve been duped instead of trying to foolishly justify the actions of a compulsive serial scammer. Despite Amir’s good work there are still way too many out there who’d dare not admit that their money was not wisely spent, and they’ll happily continue to try and selfishly drag more victims into the abyss of deception in attempt to cling onto even the faintest semblance of hope that somehow maybe they weren’t fooled. Thank you for not going that way!

Enjoy your time here though! There’s a lot to discuss even beyond the science — and heck, even the core hobby — which brings us here; thus at the very least we all have that one thing in common which allows many of us to enjoy the company of each other!

Cheers!

 

[Lupin]

Perhaps although would you or I want this unit after seeing this test? I doubt that would be the case and we would be looking at less expensive, more practical better measuring gear that makes sense and does not scintillate the visual senses with overbuilt rubbish like the Audo GD stuff does.

I don't want this, it's seriously overpriced for what it does and offers.

But that isn't the point here. The question was if the unit sounds as bad as the numbers would suggest. Than the answer is most likely no.

People see the numbers of one (good measuring) DAC and then the numbers of this DAC and see a big difference in numbers so they automatically assume that it will sound terrible, like a tin can or something. This is just not the case.

Amir was comparing two DACs in one of his older reviews, one DAC had not even half the SINAD score of the other DAC. Yet he said that the differences were very subtle at best/worst and required concentrated listening. Most people during every day listing would most likely not hear a difference at all.

 

[Doodski]

Amir was comparing two DACs in one of his older reviews, one DAC had not even half the SINAD score of the other DAC. Yet he said that the differences were very subtle at best/worst and required concentrated listening. Most people during every day listing would most likely not hear a difference at all.

I'm presently listening on a 5 year old notebook PC 3.5mm headphone output through some Monster sport earbuds because my desktop PC watercooler died and the cable for the Sennheiser headphones is too long for this little notebook at the edge of the desk. So I'm maybe not as concerned about SINAD and stuff as some may think.

 

[Geert]

The question was if the unit sounds as bad as the numbers would suggest. Than the answer is most likely no.

Audio-GD fans know real sound quality is hidden in what we can't measure

 

[AudioSceptic]

Resolution used to be great. But then I allowed large images to be uploaded to the forum. To keep people from uploading 100 megabyte images I had to out a redolution limit above which the system resized the image. This bar graph has very high resolution so now getting resized making it blurry. So kind of stuck right now until I think of a solution.

Thanks for the explanation. It doesn't work as it is, so perhaps just show a small selection above and below the one being tested, along with an overall rating in simple numerical form (xxx/yyy)? I think vertical is more legible, and fits well if you limit it to, say, 10 above and 10 below. Where is the graph you base the image on BTW?

 

[AudioSceptic]

OK, put in a fix that allows the bar graph now embed in full size:

Click on it and it will get larger. If you have a really high resolution display, you should be able to read it all. If not, just right click, save. Then on Windows photo viewer lets you properly enlarge it or rotate it and then view.

Thanks, that's better. Works in Mac Preview of course.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I don't want this, it's seriously overpriced for what it does and offers.

But that isn't the point here. The question was if the unit sounds as bad as the numbers would suggest. Than the answer is most likely no.

People see the numbers of one (good measuring) DAC and then the numbers of this DAC and see a big difference in numbers so they automatically assume that it will sound terrible, like a tin can or something. This is just not the case.

Amir was comparing two DACs in one of his older reviews, one DAC had not even half the SINAD score of the other DAC. Yet he said that the differences were very subtle at best/worst and required concentrated listening. Most people during every day listing would most likely not hear a difference at all.

That would be fine if worse measuring DACs were always cheaper than better measuring ones, because you can make a value judgement (is my hearing good enough to justify spending $$ instead of $?), but we don't have that. What excuses $multi-thousand products that don't reach $9 standards and why does anyone buy them?

 

[Geert]

What excuses $multi-thousand products that don't reach $9 standards and why does anyone buy them?

Because they claim to trade irrelevant specs for musicality and PRAT, and there's a big audience that buys in to that.

 

[sarumbear]

Most people during every day listing would most likely not hear a difference at all.

Then why would those “most people” buy something this expensive, even use a separate DAC. If by “most people” you mean audiophiles, shouldn’t then hearing those subtle differences are their reason d’être?

 

[Mnyb]

NOS mode - Non Over Sampling

One of the many tropes of audiophile nonsense is that DACs that use oversampling sound worse than ones that don't oversample. I think this is right up there with "negative feedback is always bad" and "discrete components are always better than an I.C."

I even think the Idea is the worst of them ,you can with skill and effort sort of make discrete non feedback circuits “work” it might not achieve the greatest performance but not totally broken.

NOS is usually combined with no filters what’s so ever , this is a broken concept and can’t be fixed .

Or do someone actually provide modern NOS DAC’s with incredible steep analog filters , with all the problems that would entail ?

While just oversampling + digital filter + reasonable analog filter design can be lifted from a textbook or design example by the DAC chip manufacturer ? While not the highest design skill , would surely beat this DAC ?

 

[Mnyb]

yep,

i just join that forum and this is all they praised about…. Even on the Head Fi, everyone was praising what this company did. Luckily I didn’t buy into the hype and never purchased anything from them. when the hype reads “ You need 300-500hrs burn in“ All I could say is BS! If the product out of the box doesn’t sound right, move it on or asked for a refund, this is one sign that it’s not all there, never believe in “burn-in for 100s of hours…..

I think that proper combinations of local and global feedback etc also eats component variations and aging and it’s the actual circuit design itself that sets the performance ! As it should be.

Sadly there might be a kind of truth here . The product might detoriate further by use ( burn in ) and or also vary depending on ambient temperature, weather , the phases of the moon .

This kind of cargo cult engineering can bring back a plethora of what sane engineers consider solved problems? Like circuits that depends on over engineering the power supplies to perform and yes performance that change over time and what else we can imagine ? I’ve seen measurements of some audiophile grade stuff where copious amounts of crossover distortion shows up like it where the sixties and early days of transistors .

these boutique audiophile mfg does not follow well established principles of “ how to do sh*t” and consequently performance can be whatever or even broken as the design by “ear” ( rather by years of compounded delusions doing this ) can yield results none of the fine engineers participating on this forum can imagine ?