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The Etymotic Target (R.I.P. Harman)

amirm

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??? The x curve is one of the worst thought of "standards" for room sound there is. There is a lot of work going ton to revise this old and ad-hoc response of a speaker in a room that is forced by Dolby for movie mixing and mastering.

I also have no idea where they come up with the assertion of how each and every sound recording and mixing room is setup as to need this and that boost in playback. There is no there, there.
 
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Sharur

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??? The x curve is one of the worst thought of "standards" for room sound there is. There is a lot of work going ton to revise this old and ad-hoc response of a speaker in a room that is forced by Dolby for movie mixing and mastering.

I also have no idea where they come up with the assertion of how each and every sound recording and mixing room is setup as to need this and that boost in playback. There is no there, there.
@JohnYang1997
 

richard12511

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When people say that the "Harman Target" is flat, they are correct, but they are referring to the anechoic target. The Harman anechoic target really is a flat line, and that results in many different in room slopes, based on distance, dispersion, room reflectivity, etc. I think you may be confusing anechoic targets with in room targets, as the "Harman Target" you showed was an in room at the listening position average.

For speakers, I don't think Harman really has an in-room target. They more just say that the target is a flat line, measured anechoically. Place that anechoically flat speaker in a room, and the curve that comes out is the "target", which depends on many variables. The in room figures you see floating around are averages/guesses.

Headphones are different, though. Harman's headphone target started from the sound of neutral speakers, but then extra bass was added because people seemed to enjoy that more, on average. So, I think you're correct to say that the Harman headphone target is not "neutral", but then again, they don't claim it is.
 

Leiker535

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I think that together with explaining the backing of the Ety curve, you should explain the actual reasoning behind the Harman curve itself. Being a preference average, your point is made by definition, and so the ety argument just goes to show a solution for people who do want a perceptively neutral curve.

Edit and addon: I'm talking about the Harman target for headphones and Iems. I can't say for speakers.
 
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Sharur

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So, I think you're correct to say that the Harman headphone target is not "neutral", but then again, they don't claim it is.
Yes, but there is a misconception that it is neutral, @amirm even states so himself
 

richard12511

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Yes, but there is a misconception that it is neutral, @amirm even states so himself

Does he really say that? From what I've seen, he says that the Harman headphone target is a target derived from average listener preference. From what I understand, Harman started with a response that sounds most similar to a speaker with a flat(anechoic) response, but subsequently boosted the bass to increase average listener preference. There are theories(guesses) as to why people might prefer different curves for headphones vs speakers(bass boosted vs flat, respectively). Main one I've heard is the lack of physical bass sensation with headphones.
 
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Sharur

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Does he really say that? From what I've seen, he says that the Harman headphone target is a target derived from average listener preference. From what I understand, Harman started with a response that sounds most similar to a speaker with a flat(anechoic) response, but subsequently boosted the bass to increase average listener preference. There are theories(guesses) as to why people might prefer different curves for headphones vs speakers(bass boosted vs flat, respectively). Main one I've heard is the lack of physical bass sensation with headphones.
Screen Shot 2021-09-06 at 4.24.32 PM.png

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ohm-review-headphone.24694/page-7#post-836488
 
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Sharur

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?? Are you confusing headphone targets and room targets ?
The OliveToole target was used as a baseline for listener preference. So no, the research doesn't prove that people want flat speakers in a treated room. Therefore, it is purely subjective.
 

richard12511

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?? Are you confusing headphone targets and room targets ?

This was my question, too. I'm thinking the "Harman Target" (attached) slide he used is an average derived from in room measurements of good loudspeakers, not for headphones. The Harman headphone target looks very similar to the Etymotic(neutral) curve outside of the bass, but has boosted bass for more supposed enjoyment.

Pretty sure that curve he posted though is the wrong curve to be using, even for loudspeakers. If you ask Toole/Olive directly what the in room "target" is, they will say it doesn't exist, as it depends on the room, listening distance, and speaker dispersion width. The only correct Harman speaker target is a flat line, measured anechoically. The in room target is whatever that speaker spits out when measured at the actual listening position.
 

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Sharur

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This was my question, too. I'm thinking the "Harman Target" (attached) slide he used is an average derived from in room measurements of good loudspeakers, not for headphones. The Harman headphone target looks very similar to the Etymotic(neutral) curve outside of the bass, but has boosted bass for more supposed enjoyment.

Pretty sure that curve he posted though is the wrong curve to be using, even for loudspeakers. If you ask Toole/Olive directly what the in room "target" is, they will say it doesn't exist, as it depends on the room, listening distance, and speaker dispersion width. The only correct Harman speaker target is a flat line, measured anechoically. The in room target is whatever that speaker spits out when measured at the actual listening position.
The OliveToole target is the average speaker preference from blind tests. The Harman target is the average headphone preference from blind tests. The point I am making is that neither are in any way a reference to flat speakers in a treated room.
 

richard12511

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The OliveToole target is the average speaker preference from blind tests. The Harman target is the average headphone preference from blind tests. The point I am making is that neither are in any way objectively flat.

I agree, both Harman targets are based on listener preference, but:

The Harman loudspeaker target is a flat response from 20-20,000. People prefer a neutral response on average for loudspeakers. The graph you posted is just an "average guess" at an in room target for loudspeakers, and is not the real Harman target. Toole/Olive make it very clear that there really is no such thing as a true target when measured in room. That's because the slope(20-20,000) could be anywhere from -0 to -10, based on room, position, listening distance, etc. The only real Harman loudspeaker target must be measured anechoically, and it's perfectly neutral.

The Harman headphone target is also based on listener preference, but unlike the loudspeaker target, it's not neutral. For some reason, most people prefer boosted bass when it comes to headphones. If you're looking for a more neutral sounding headphone, I think the Etymotic curve is perfect for that.

So, yeah, I think we're on the same page in many respects. The only thing I really disagreed with was you calling that -10dB sloped line the "Harman target". Had that not been in the video, I would mostly agree.
 

richard12511

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Again, he's talking in room, and again those lines are in room. Those are not the Harman target. It even says it in the legend of the graph: "steady-state-room curves". A lot of folks get this confused, so I don't blame you. It's a very common misunderstanding of the Harman science. Speaking strictly of speakers here, the only real Harman Target is an anechoic neutral target. There is no in room Harman target, as it depends on the room. Those "targets" above are steady state room curves for a specific room at a specific listening distance.

I do think Sean is kinda speaking on the edge there, as he's combining several factors and assumptions, but that's probably the character limitation of twitter. The diffuse field will sound too thin to most, but still more neutral. Most people just don't prefer a neutral headphone sound.

Again, though, the Harman loudspeaker and Harman headphone targets are different. Both are based on preference, but the Harman loudspeaker starts and stops with an anechoic neutral response(not to be confused with in room response), as that just happens to be what people most prefer. The Harman headphone target had a neutral basis, but added extra bass over time to account for listener preference. If you want a more neutral headphone response, the diffuse field or Etymotic curve are (imo) better.
 
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Sharur

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Again, though, the Harman loudspeaker and Harman headphone targets are different. Both are based on preference, but the Harman loudspeaker starts and stops with an anechoic neutral response(not to be confused with in room response), as that just happens to be what people most prefer. The Harman headphone target had a neutral basis, but added extra bass over time to account for listener preference. If you want a more neutral headphone response, the diffuse field or Etymotic curve are (imo) better.
So the Harman target is for when a speaker measures flat in an Anechoic chamber but placed in a normal room?
 

richard12511

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So the Harman target is for when a speaker measures flat in an Anechoic chamber but placed in a normal room?

Yes to the bolded. The in room target doesn't really exist, as a normal room doesn't really exist. The curve will just be whatever the neutral speaker happens to measure in that room at the listening position. It could be anywhere from almost perfectly flat for nearfield, to 20Hz being 12dB above 20kHz for super farfield. That's why anechoic measurements are so important. It's the only way to know for sure how close you are to the target.
 
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Sharur

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Where in the Harman papers does it say that the bass boost happens naturally after putting a flat speaker in a normal room?

Is this "preferred listening curve" not real?
1630968024768.png


Are the low frequencies "stacking" on to each other?
Screen Shot 2021-09-06 at 6.42.12 PM.png
 
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