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State of the art Home Theatre - how?

andymok

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Object based codecs needs to make a calibration of your set up to know the position of your speakers in your room to make the projection of objects on your speakers. So it is not just a simple decoding like 7.1
I'm not aware of object based decoder as a software on PC.

Contrary to many beliefs, Dolby Atmos, is just bed channels (ie surround) + objects/height. It can work right out of the box if you have done set-up and alignment (time, phase, amplitude) externally already (ie right room design and speaker placement). They are virtual models and designed to be scalable after all.

So no, the system does not need to know where your speakers are if you're following the models already.

There are systems/DAWs that allow you to create sized spaces, but those are for very specific applications such as sound design on locations.
 

JeffS7444

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I think the lack of correction in the 150-500Hz range is disappointing.
I redid my measurements, and tried switching off Midrange Compensation which resulted in this:
IMG_0584.jpg

With this as target for center channel:
IMG_0585.jpg

My happiest compromise seemed to be with the Midrange Compensation feature switched off for all channels save for Center. And while I was at it, I took the time to listen to what the Dynamic Eq feature actually does - and immediately shut it off: So that's where the overbearing bass was coming from! IMO the feature actually makes it harder to follow dialog at lower volumes.

Due to small size of the Klipsch Chorus IIIs, crossover frequency to the sub is 120 Hz for Center.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I redid my measurements, and tried switching off Midrange Compensation which resulted in this:
View attachment 149152
That only affects the >1kHz range, not the 150-500Hz range which is still very rocky.

Due to small size of the Klipsch Chorus IIIs, crossover frequency to the sub is 120 Hz for Center.
Might be due to that but, still, there is no reason why there's no impact on those wild FR swings.
 

Soundmixer

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Contrary to many beliefs, Dolby Atmos, is just bed channels (ie surround) + objects/height."

This is incorrect. There is only one-bed channel in the home version of Atmos, and that is the LFE. Everything else is represented as an object, and that includes the dialog. Objects are not confined to the height speakers, they can be positioned anywhere in the sound field.
 
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Dave Zan

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...I measure about 34 dB, A...and 44 dB, C...

Thanks, that provides some context.
My room is quieter than that, below the noise level of an RS SPL meter that I borrowed.
At best it should be below the noise level of the new MicW measurement mic <20 dB.
So an AVR may well be transparent for you, but not here.

I consider my system to be State of the Art

Processor: StormAudio ISP with AVB board...

Yes, it seems fair to call that SOTA, looks like a very nice system.
I didn't realise there was an option to extract a PCM data stream from the processor, thanks for that information.
That is the crucial part of my planned system.
I just hope to do it with more DIY but less money.

Best wishes
David
 
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srrxr71

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Object based codecs needs to make a calibration of your set up to know the position of your speakers in your room to make the projection of objects on your speakers. So it is not just a simple decoding like 7.1
I'm not aware of object based decoder as a software on PC.

Do AVRs calibrate for speaker position for ATMOS?
 

JeffS7444

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Do AVRs calibrate for speaker position for ATMOS?
Data including the distance to the speakers is collected when the room-correction procedure is done, but exactly what's done with it, I don't know.
 

srrxr71

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Contrary to many beliefs, Dolby Atmos, is just bed channels (ie surround) + objects/height. It can work right out of the box if you have done set-up and alignment (time, phase, amplitude) externally already (ie right room design and speaker placement). They are virtual models and designed to be scalable after all.

So no, the system does not need to know where your speakers are if you're following the models already.

There are systems/DAWs that allow you to create sized spaces, but those are for very specific applications such as sound design on locations.

So basically your setup has to follow one of the models. So that advantage of an object based system has not been yet realized?

One would hope that one day in software it would decode to 32 or even 64 channels for people building a dome like setup with 32/64 smaller coaxials. Maybe little inexpensive 3” spheres. Plus a sub and maybe front channels with better mid bass than the 3” spheres can muster. A setup that would have to be calibrated as i don’t think anyone could make a perfect dome especially if there are to be multiple people in the sweetspot.

I hope that happens within 5 years.

Also right now if you plan to make an avr part of your setup - they still have not dealt with HDMI issues yet. This is the major Japanese manufacturers here. So they will need a year and then maybe more audiophile companies may support it properly in 2 years.

Personally this keeps me away from even starting that chase even though I am fully aware of what object based audio brings to the table. If you buy now imho you are a super early adopter. You will have to replace your gear with HDMI 2.1 complaint gear in 2 years.

Short answer to the OPs question is I guess there is not. It may take up to a decade to figure it out even imho.
 
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apgood

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Data including the distance to the speakers is collected when the room-correction procedure is done, but exactly what's done with it, I don't know.
At the moment the only processor that takes and uses exact speaker position information is Trinnov and even for them it is only important if using their speaker remapping feature should you need to put speakers in non-ideal locations.
 

Soundmixer

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So basically your setup has to follow one of the models. So that advantage of an object based system has not been yet realized?

Not for the home. In the theater, the calibration of Atmos does ping the individual speakers in the system to locate where they are, and how many of them are in place.


One would hope that one day in software it would decode to 32 or even 64 channels for people building a dome like setup with 32/64 smaller coaxials. Maybe little inexpensive 3” spheres. Plus a sub and maybe front channels with better mid bass than the 3” spheres can muster. A setup that would have to be calibrated as i don’t think anyone could make a perfect dome especially if there are to be multiple people in the sweetspot.


The Altitude 32 processor does have the ability to decode 32 channels in software, and it is expandable to 48 channels as well. It is really difficult to design a system with a sweet spot larger than one person because of the different time arrivals of the different speakers off-axis of the center seat. There is only one ideal central point where all of the signals arrive at the ear at the same time, and once you move off of the central axis, arrival times vary.

Also right now if you plan to make an avr part of your setup - they still have not dealt with HDMI issues yet. This is the major Japanese manufacturers here. So they will need a year and then maybe more audiophile companies may support it properly in 2 years.

Denon and Marantz have already worked out their HDMI issues, and that issue wasn't really a problem unless you are a gamer. All new Denon and Marantz AVR and processors for 2021 have either a workaround or an outright new HDMI chipset. This doesn't take two years to fix.

Personally this keeps me away from even starting that chase even though I am fully aware of what object based audio brings to the table. If you buy now imho you are a super early adopter. You will have to replace your gear with HDMI 2.1 complaint gear in 2 years.

Object-based audio has been in receivers for years now, and unless you are a gamer, it is not likely you will need the full capabilities of HDMI 2.1 any time soon. A super early adopter of Atmos would have been in mid-2014, not in mid-2021.
 

abdo123

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So basically your setup has to follow one of the models. So that advantage of an object based system has not been yet realized?

One would hope that one day in software it would decode to 32 or even 64 channels for people building a dome like setup with 32/64 smaller coaxials. Maybe little inexpensive 3” spheres. Plus a sub and maybe front channels with better mid bass than the 3” spheres can muster. A setup that would have to be calibrated as i don’t think anyone could make a perfect dome especially if there are to be multiple people in the sweetspot.

I hope that happens within 5 years.

Also right now if you plan to make an avr part of your setup - they still have not dealt with HDMI issues yet. This is the major Japanese manufacturers here. So they will need a year and then maybe more audiophile companies may support it properly in 2 years.

Personally this keeps me away from even starting that chase even though I am fully aware of what object based audio brings to the table. If you buy now imho you are a super early adopter. You will have to replace your gear with HDMI 2.1 complaint gear in 2 years.

Short answer to the OPs question is I guess there is not. It may take up to a decade to figure it out even imho.

you don’t have to worry about HDMI 2.1 compliance anymore i think as Denon already released new AVRs with new serial numbers with none of these issues.
 

JeffS7444

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I think it's worth pointing out that content creators are targeting the 85% of the population who aren't spending thousands of dollars on their setups, and who want their living rooms to be living rooms. Impression that I've gotten in 2020-21 is that 55" TV sets remain very popular now that prices are so reasonable, and people still seem to want movies on Bluray, but AVRs are a tough sell, and no one seems to want speakers which aren't a soundbar or wireless.
 

srrxr71

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I think it's worth pointing out that content creators are targeting the 85% of the population who aren't spending thousands of dollars on their setups, and who want their living rooms to be living rooms. Impression that I've gotten in 2020-21 is that 55" TV sets remain very popular now that prices are so reasonable, and people still seem to want movies on Bluray, but AVRs are a tough sell, and no one seems to want speakers which aren't a soundbar or wireless.

Now that I heard that even with 32 or 64 channels the listening position is just one head size it seems like this is an exercise in futility. No wonder they are pushing binaural atmos so much. It’s probably the only practical way to get it.

Which brings me to an aside. I have Cyberpunk running on PC. It supports ATMOS. I had to download the Atmos app. My setup is PC to LG OLED to eARC on Apple TV (latest) to HomePod 2 channel Atmos.

I’ve played with it. You can really localize things as coming from behind you. Now if you really concentrate obviously the sound is coming from in front. But it sounds like a L(minus)R signal. If you defocus then it really seems like it is coming from behind. Just find a speaker in the game and walk around it. It’s very convincing considering it is 2 channel atmos.

One thing imho the homepods excel at is keeping a stable stereo image no matter how you turn your head.

This leads me to believe the only practical solution is to have multiple front beam forming units which basically send you a binaural Atmos signal to your ears. One for each person sitting in the listening/watching room.

I don’t know if there is any other workable solution.
 
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Vincentponcet

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I think it's worth pointing out that content creators are targeting the 85% of the population who aren't spending thousands of dollars on their setups, and who want their living rooms to be living rooms. Impression that I've gotten in 2020-21 is that 55" TV sets remain very popular now that prices are so reasonable, and people still seem to want movies on Bluray, but AVRs are a tough sell, and no one seems to want speakers which aren't a soundbar or wireless.

The content is made for theatre, so huge screen and massive set of loudspeakers with great frequency range.
Current TVs have higher dynamic ranges than theatre reference level but the content is already captured as HDR 12bits, so recalibrating for DV/HDR10 for TVs is not a big deal.
On the soundtrack side, home Atmos is a downscale from cinema Atmos, anyway, even a 5.1/7.1 is made for great full range speakers.
The content is made to be great, it is just to us to have great set-up.
 

JeffS7444

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Now that I heard that even with 32 or 64 channels the listening position is just one head size it seems like this is an exercise in futility.
I don't know whether that's true, but even if it were, who's going to create a soundtrack with such demanding hardware requirements? To date I've heard only low level ambient sound from the height channels, but maybe that's all it needs. So far my impression of Atmos soundtracks has been of a more seamless sound field rather than a sense of multiple mono channels, but that could simply be a difference in the mix.
 

srrxr71

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I don't know whether that's true, but even if it were, who's going to create a soundtrack with such demanding hardware requirements? To date I've heard only low level ambient sound from the height channels, but maybe that's all it needs. So far my impression of Atmos soundtracks has been of a more seamless sound field rather than a sense of multiple mono channels, but that could simply be a difference in the mix.
That’s the thing about object oriented. You don’t have to create 32 or 64 channels. You don’t create a mix. You create a sound field and the system will generate the channels. That’s why the same Atmos signal can be used with all the various home Atmos speaker setups. From binaural through 2 channel Atmos to the 24/32/48/64 channel setups.

At least from ambisonics the more channels you have the larger the sweetspot or the higher the frequency response that will convey the sound field. Atmos probably has some differences. I’m not sure what exactly the benefits are when you add more channels but in theory they can be as high in number as practically achievable. Ambisonics has been with us since the 70s so it’s not new but the practical home implementations are just now coming into being.

SOTA would probably mean wiring up a bunch of speakers. But practical home application means they would all be wireless. For me personally I won’t get involved until possibly you can set up multiple “sound bars” wirelessly on various points on the ceiling and walls. That may represent a practical form of SOTA. You’d still need to wire up power but at least you don’t need multiple signal wires.

Such sound bars would be multi channel and multi driver possibly beam forming plus ambience. Possibly each bar would only get a sub signal which it must decode. The current pair of wires for each discrete channel isn’t going to make this easy for most people.

IMHO there’s a lot of thinking that needs to go into this from where we are.

I guess for those with a Trinnov AV and the budget for whole room wiring and room treatment- that would be current SOTA. I suppose actual SOTA will always be out of reach of the majority of people. However something needs to deliver a 90% of that solution to the masses and that’s where a lot of development is yet due. It may end up being basically beamed binaural and maybe it can read your head position with cameras. It might be wireless soundbars plastered all over the room. But 64 discrete little spheres would be out of reach of most and probably overkill. I would agree with you on that.

If you’re getting a believable sound field from 7.2.4 then that’s all you need. Also yes I doubt the height channels need to be full range hi end speakers. They need to be decent enough and the more separated sources of sound there are the better. That’s where all the 32/64 channel talk comes from. Now what exactly for in Atmos i’m not clear I was under the impression from ambisonics that it increases the sweetspot size.
 

JeffS7444

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That’s the thing about object oriented. You don’t have to create 32 or 64 channels. You don’t create a mix. You create a sound field and the system will generate the channels. That’s why the same Atmos signal can be used with all the various home Atmos speaker setups. From binaural through 2 channel Atmos to the 24/32/48/64 channel setups.
Okay thanks for the clarification. But I wonder if the size of the room ultimately limits the number of channels you can utilize to optimum potential; in other words, how many nodes can you pack into an average-sized living room before you wind up with a mess of peaks and nulls caused by too many speakers packed too closely together?
If you’re getting a believable sound field from 7.2.4 then that’s all you need. Also yes I doubt the height channels need to be full range hi end speakers. They need to be decent enough and the more separated sources of sound there are the better. That’s where all the 32/64 channel talk comes from.
I have no idea whether my current [5.1.2] setup is best for my space or not, that's simply the limit of my Marantz NR1608 AVR, and it's a configuration which has been easy to live with. My ideal is for neither sound or video to dominate, so that my attention remains on the program, rather than being diverted to the amazing hardware. But I imagine that much is determined by the content creator, not the particulars of my playback system.
 

Soundmixer

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Now that I heard that even with 32 or 64 channels the listening position is just one head size it seems like this is an exercise in futility. No wonder they are pushing binaural atmos so much. It’s probably the only practical way to get it.

32 and 64 channels are not for one person, it is for multiple folks in a very large room. There is no such thing as binaural Atmos, but there is such thing as virtual Atmos. The problem with virtual Atmos is once you move off-center, the effect breaks down and falls apart. Not only that, but virtual Atmos does not have the "imaging" precision that actual speakers above have. This is also a failure of "reflective" Atmos speakers as well.
 

srrxr71

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32 and 64 channels are not for one person, it is for multiple folks in a very large room. There is no such thing as binaural Atmos, but there is such thing as virtual Atmos. The problem with virtual Atmos is once you move off-center, the effect breaks down and falls apart. Not only that, but virtual Atmos does not have the "imaging" precision that actual speakers above have. This is also a failure of "reflective" Atmos speakers as well.
Yes I would like to set up a sufficient Atmos system that would at least accommodate 4-6 people in the sweet spot. I think you would be getting into 32 channel range just for that.

For example AirPods Pro support Atmos with head tracking. What would be the downside of such an implementation?

What are your thoughts on a smith realizer?
 
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srrxr71

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Okay thanks for the clarification. But I wonder if the size of the room ultimately limits the number of channels you can utilize to optimum potential; in other words, how many nodes can you pack into an average-sized living room before you wind up with a mess of peaks and nulls caused by too many speakers packed too closely together?

I have no idea whether my current [5.1.2] setup is best for my space or not, that's simply the limit of my Marantz NR1608 AVR, and it's a configuration which has been easy to live with. My ideal is for neither sound or video to dominate, so that my attention remains on the program, rather than being diverted to the amazing hardware. But I imagine that much is determined by the content creator, not the particulars of my playback system.

I think a lot needs to be worked out in terms of the tech imho. Right now i’m enjoying Atmos from 2 HomePods and it sounds surprisingly convincing. I’m sure having 8 channels is superior.
 
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