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Danley Sound Labs SH50

Geert

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Compared to anything else available in the professional sound reinforcement world - there just is no substitute. The only other alternative would be perhaps Funktion One in terms of directivity.
Lot's of alternatives I think, depending on the criteria. And probably also better alternatives depending on the use case. An example of what comes close conceptually as a real substitute; the Electrovoice MTS-4153 or MTS-6154. With controled directivity to 350Hz and peak SPL of more than 150 dB. That's about 20 dB higher than the the SH50, which is gigantic. They are larger speakers of course.
 

Geert

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That makes them automatically not comparable in my book. Danley also has larger units, you should compare with those then.
For me it's not about who makes the best or most powerful speakers. I just don't like the 'no substitute' statement, and more specifically the suggestion that others can't offer the same level of controled directivity. I just gave one example that can.

In PA sound there are a lot of different elements that are of importance next to frequency respons and directivity. So comparing different offerings is not that straightforward as with hifi speakers. It's a matter of finding the best solution for a specific job.
 

voodooless

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For me it's not about who makes the best or most powerful speakers.

And yet you start throwing SPL specs and directivity numbers. It’s rather obvious that the larger speaker would have lower pattern control and if you can cram in more drivers it will get louder. If you want impressive, look at J2-96 or equivalent:

Low Freq six 18" woofers
Mid Range twenty four 5" mids,
High Freq Twelve 1" compression drivers



I just don't like the 'no substitute' statement, and more specifically the suggestion that others can't offer the same level of controled directivity. I just gave one example that can.

Yes the patent on the earlier designs expired, so can be copied. Also others have licensed the technology. You can also find your way around patents if you are creative. There are very few alternative designs for proper high power point sources with good pattern control.

So comparing different offerings is not that straightforward as with hifi speakers.

Well, you started it.. I just proved your point ;)
 
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Geert

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And yet you start throwing SPL specs and directivity numbers.
I gave 1 SPL number and didn't mention any directivity numbers so no need to get all wound up.

Yes the patent on the earlier designs expired, so can be copied. Also others have licensed the technology.
Are you suggesting EV just copied (Danleys) designs? EV already made this type of enclosures more than 30 years ago and does it's own research on wave guides. Any reference to those patents?
 

tomtoo

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I gave 1 SPL number and didn't mention any directivity numbers so no need to get all wound up.


Are you suggesting EV just copied (Danleys) designs? EV already made this type of enclosures more than 30 years ago and does it's own research on wave guides. Any reference to those patents?

https://patents.justia.com/inventor/thomas-j-danley

Edit says: Do you have some references to similar EV constructions?
 
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Geert

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Thanks. These patents are only about 10 years old, while EV (and if I'm not mistaken Renkus Heinz) have been making full range single horn systems for ages. Not saying they had the same specs, for example the very old designs had very high but not constant directivity, but I would be very surprised if their more recent design would not be based on their own research. They might of course also adopt external knowledge, but that works in both directions.

Do you have some references to similar EV constructions?
I worked with these systems. But we are talking pre-internet times, so I don't have a reference readily available. I'll see if I can Google something.
 

tomtoo

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Thanks. These patents are only about 10 years old, while EV (and if I'm not mistaken Renkus Heinz) have been making full range single horn systems for ages. Not saying they had the same specs, for example the very old designs had very high but not constant directivity, but I would be very surprised if their more recent design would not be based on their own research. They might of course also adopt external knowledge, but that works in both directions.


I worked with these systems. But we are talking pre-internet times, so I don't have a reference readily available. I'll see if I can Google something.

Very interesting. Never have seen from EV something like that. Wonder why EV didnt patent it?
 

voodooless

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Thanks. These patents are only about 10 years old, while EV (and if I'm not mistaken Renkus Heinz) have been making full range single horn systems for ages.

Then you’ve not been looking good enough. The unity horn patent is from 1999/2000, and there are older patents about point source horns from the late 80’s. The synergy patent which the SH50 is based on is indeed newer.

Not saying they had the same specs, for example the very old designs had very high but not constant directivity, but I would be very surprised if their more recent design would not be based on their own research. They might of course also adopt external knowledge, but that works in both directions.

I didn’t want to imply that they copied the Danleys’ design. I guess the learning went both ways as it always does in these cases. I guess EV will have it’s own slew of patents as well.

I worked with these systems. But we are talking pre-internet times, so I don't have a reference readily available. I'll see if I can Google something.

Would be very interesting to dig up some of the older designs and do a comparison.
 

abdo123

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have been making full range single horn systems for ages.

Are there any horn-systems, with directivity control starting from 100Hz (both horizontal and vertical), that would look nice in a domestic environment?

This has been on my mind for few months now since i'm running out of WAF points with dull boxes with visible drivers. but at the same time the SH50 is too big (not really the biggest issue, i understand horns need to be big), too expensive, and too visually invasive for a living space.
 

voodooless

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Are there any horn-systems, with directivity control starting from 100Hz (both horizontal and vertical), that would look nice in a domestic environment?

I guess that would depend on your definition of “nice” ;) You can get lower directivity control with cardioid systems. Tapped horns are also quite directional. But none of the horn stuff will ever be small if you want low end pattern control.

Best bet for a bigger home system would be something the D&D does with a leaky midrange combined with a synergy horn. I’ve contemplated making such a system, but it’s even more complex than a normal multi-entry horn, and will also need a sub to get down low. All in all just to much effort for my liking.
 
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ctrl

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All horns are nice to look at compared to boxed speakers to be honest. I don't mind big, I just want any options lol.
Controlled directivity down to 100Hz, the horn mouth diameter will probably be >>1m, which means huge :eek:

At 0.7m horn mouth diameter you get down to about 500-600Hz. In addition, a spherical wave horn looks spectacular.
1629380640576.png 1629381020923.png
 

milezone

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Assuming you're sitting at the center of the horn you're listening to the woofers off axis and reflected. The diagram below while it looks nice isn't indicative of how the sound waves are actually propagating from flanking woofers in my understanding. I like that this design is coaxial and seems like an interesting configuration to time align the drivers. At the same time doing so seems potentially very difficult to solve properly given off axis nature of the drivers, horn loading characteristics, and higher likelihood of phase cancellation given the drivers orientations.
 

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gnarly

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Assuming you're sitting at the center of the horn you're listening to the woofers off axis and reflected. The diagram below while it looks nice isn't indicative of how the sound waves are actually propagating from flanking woofers in my understanding. I like that this design is coaxial and seems like an interesting configuration to time align the drivers. At the same time doing so seems potentially very difficult to solve properly given off axis nature of the drivers, horn loading characteristics, and higher likelihood of phase cancellation given the drivers orientations.

I thinks it's crucial to take wavelengths and how they sum into consideration, for each of the sets of drivers located on the horn.
Take the SH-50 woofers, they probably low pass somewhere around 300Hz. Which equals about a 3-3/4ft wavelength, or about an 11 inch quarter WL.
Given the SH-50's woofer ports are all within 11 inches of each other, all within the 1/4 WL, there isn't really any phase cancellation between flanking drivers. Maybe a couple of dB less than fuller summation at 300Hz than at 150Hz, but that's as bad as it gets (which is dang good imo!)
The good ole phase wheel to the rescue :)
phase wheel.JPG


I've built several sets of these synergy/MEH type speakers, and can attest through many polar measurements, that if anything, they combine multiple drivers better than any other type design i've tried.
 

MarkS

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Where shall we start?

100 dB/2.83V sensitivity.

136 peak dB output, 130 dB continuous output.

oh and the sound comes out from one point in space, not from every driver like other multi-way speakers.

View attachment 148350

But at 130 dB, I want to be VERY far away, in which case that 3-way looks like a point source.

In my experience as an audience member, PA sound is very often much too loud, so getting it louder is not, to me, a thing I want to see happen.
 

dshreter

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But at 130 dB, I want to be VERY far away, in which case that 3-way looks like a point source.

In my experience as an audience member, PA sound is very often much too loud, so getting it louder is not, to me, a thing I want to see happen.
I would suggest the benefit isn't playing louder, it's doing so with less distortion. A venue, engineer, and the artist will make it as loud as they want regardless.
 

AudioJester

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How would Erin feel about eq/correction filter and then remeasuring?
 

headshake

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Assuming you're sitting at the center of the horn you're listening to the woofers off axis and reflected. The diagram below while it looks nice isn't indicative of how the sound waves are actually propagating from flanking woofers in my understanding. I like that this design is coaxial and seems like an interesting configuration to time align the drivers. At the same time doing so seems potentially very difficult to solve properly given off axis nature of the drivers, horn loading characteristics, and higher likelihood of phase cancellation given the drivers orientations.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00969/full
This paper is about frequencies and how we estimate the distance. I'd say that graphic is wrong in how things radiate and ignores how we hear. It looks nice though! Too bad we are visually dominant animals.
 
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