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Why can I hear my SATA drives through my AVR+amp?

tifune

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Ever since connecting my HTPC to my Denon 8500, I can hear my SATA drives reading/writing through my speakers. With only the AVR, it was so quiet I never bothered to look into it. But, yesterday I added a Monolith 5ch and now the noises are quite apparent. In link below, you can hear a bit of chirping before I start a file copy - those are my 5400rpm drives reading/writing misc. background tasks. At first I thought the issue was only present on mechanicla drives, so I did a file copy between SSDs only to get a different kind of sound. That's what you hear a few seconds in when the copy begins. (check your volume before playing, as always)


Any suggestions? My setup is dead simple - HDMI cable to receiver to TV, Monolith 5ch to a variety of Kef speakers and then 2 monolith subs and a pair of KH120's. I've read that some HDMI cables can exhibit this behavior, so I tried 3 different cables but no change. They're all relatively old, so I guess it's possible they all have same issue but seems unlikely. I've also tried connecting the AVR ground to the Monolith ground terminal, but that didn't seem to help (I'm not even sure if that's appropriate, denon's manual doesn't give grounding instructions). I never had any such trouble with USB interfaces
 

daftcombo

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Weird and probable very annoying. Did you try connecting the various devices on different outlets?

Foobar 1.6.7 is available, by the way.
 

Fillius

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I've had similar issues with an NVIDIA Shield power supply. The problem is your devices, either the drives themselves or your PSU is adding noise to the ground/shielding.

The AVR might be using its own internal ground so it's unaffected. But when connecting to a power amp the ground from the PC is being passed through to the Monolith.

Rather than connecting the grounds of the AVR and the monolith (they are already connected by your RCA cables) you either need to connect them to your house ground, using a device like an iFi groundhog, or a cheaper alternative, or use RCA cables with a lifted ground (only attached at one end).

If the problem is coming from the PC and it stops when you disconnect the HDMI, you might be able to use an active HDMI cable (optical) to stop the noisy ground getting to the AVR. Although I'm not sure if active cables still share a ground connection.

Alternatively some subs have a ground connection and a switch to change 'ground in/out'. Switching it to 'out' might help. That has solved it for me before.
 

Berwhale

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Looking at pictures fo the back of your amps... The 8500 has a 2 pin mains power connector, so no connection to safety ground. The Monolith 5X has a three mains connector, so it's connected to safety ground. The so the addition of the 5X has created a path to ground from your PC via the RCA ground connection between the AVR and your amp.

I had a very similar experience with my desktop setup when I replaced monitors with 2 pin power to monitors with a 3 pin connection. I solved the problem temporarily by chaning the connection between my PC and DAC to optical. I have a balanced DAC/Amp on order (Topping EX5) which should solve the problem permanently (I'll have balanced connections between the EX5 and my monitors).
 
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tifune

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Weird and probable very annoying. Did you try connecting the various devices on different outlets?

Foobar 1.6.7 is available, by the way.

Yes, I have - there's definitely some issues with my home's electrical. Connecting active monitors to different outlets will often cause a hum that requires an eliminator. Morley, Ebtech, etc. work fine. With this issue, none of that seems to matter. I tried keeping everything connected to a single power strip and then using an extension cord to try different outlets but no change.

I run 2 different versions of Foobar intentionally so it's easier for me to tell which audio device I'm hitting - HDMI or TempoTec via USB server.

Rather than connecting the grounds of the AVR and the monolith (they are already connected by your RCA cables) you either need to connect them to your house ground, using a device like an iFi groundhog, or a cheaper alternative, or use RCA cables with a lifted ground (only attached at one end).

If the problem is coming from the PC and it stops when you disconnect the HDMI, you might be able to use an active HDMI cable (optical) to stop the noisy ground getting to the AVR. Although I'm not sure if active cables still share a ground connection.

Alternatively some subs have a ground connection and a switch to change 'ground in/out'. Switching it to 'out' might help. That has solved it for me before.

Thanks; unplugging the subs doesn't seem to have any effect so even if I had the ground in/out switch I don't think it would matter? Possible to post an example of the HDMI cable you're describing? All the hits I see are related to longer HDMI cable runs and don't really specify if they're optical or not.

Looking at pictures fo the back of your amps... The 8500 has a 2 pin mains power connector, so no connection to safety ground. The Monolith 5X has a three mains connector, so it's connected to safety ground. The so the addition of the 5X has created a path to ground from your PC via the RCA ground connection between the AVR and your amp.

Indeed the issue goes away if I disconnect the PC via HDMI. But, recall that the issue is still present without the Monolith - it's just at a MUCH lower volume, to the extent that I never cared about it before. For example, with Monolith connected I can easily hear it with volume around 30; withOUT the external amp, I could start to hear it around volume 50 but it doesn't become intrusive until around 60-65. At that point, it's masked by whatever audio is playing and only noticeable during silent passages.
 

Trell

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Indeed the issue goes away if I disconnect the PC via HDMI. But, recall that the issue is still present without the Monolith - it's just at a MUCH lower volume, to the extent that I never cared about it before. For example, with Monolith connected I can easily hear it with volume around 30; withOUT the external amp, I could start to hear it around volume 50 but it doesn't become intrusive until around 60-65. At that point, it's masked by whatever audio is playing and only noticeable during silent passages.

For USB there are galvanic isolators that help with this, so I would assume that there are comparable solutions for HDMI.
 

Fillius

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Thanks; unplugging the subs doesn't seem to have any effect so even if I had the ground in/out switch I don't think it would matter? Possible to post an example of the HDMI cable you're describing? All the hits I see are related to longer HDMI cable runs and don't really specify if they're optical or not.
It sounds like your Monolith amp already has a ground connection so it's unlikely a sub with a ground in/out would make a difference.

I had a quick look on Google for active HDMI cables, but it seems most of them are hybrid optical and copper, so it's likely they will all have the shielding connected at both ends anyway.

I'm not sure what else to suggest. What PC power supply do you have?
 

b4nt

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Trell

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Offler

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Any suggestions? My setup is dead simple - HDMI cable to receiver to TV, Monolith 5ch to a variety of Kef speakers and then 2 monolith subs and a pair of KH120's. I've read that some HDMI cables can exhibit this behavior, so I tried 3 different cables but no change. They're all relatively old, so I guess it's possible they all have same issue but seems unlikely. I've also tried connecting the AVR ground to the Monolith ground terminal, but that didn't seem to help (I'm not even sure if that's appropriate, denon's manual doesn't give grounding instructions). I never had any such trouble with USB interfaces

I would go for USB (if it does not seem to cause the issue) or as in my case Toslink.

You might double-check if the PC is properly grounded as well.
 

b4nt

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Heh, as I suspected it could quickly become expensive. On top of that is support of HDCP that your linked device does not mention, and only 1080p at 30Hz supported.

That one would allow a 300m HDMI link (specific application, maybe for concerts and so).

Didn't find much better, searching less than 5min. But any isolator would be costly.

Could be way cheaper to swap a PC mother board, the PC PSU, or so, to kill the noise source in the PC.
 

Trell

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That one would allow a 300m HDMI link (specific application, maybe for concerts and so).

Didn't find much better, searching less than 5min. But any isolator would be costly.

Could be way cheaper to swap a PC mother board, the PC PSU, or so, to kill the noise source in the PC.

I'm not sure that a 300 meter HDMI link is that useful to the OP :D

A PC is a rat nest of various interferences and can be hard to fix.
 

b4nt

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A PC is a rat nest of various interferences and can be hard to fix.

Alternate here is maybe:
- PC to TV via HDMI (for sound plus pictures)
- TV to DAC or that Denon via Toslink (for sound)

Would costs a Toslink patch.
 
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tifune

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Have you changed the PC, for another HDMI source?

Sort of - no issues with XBox One. Forgot to mention, this also happens with my HTPC connected to a Denon 6700 I previously owned. So, it's definitely the PC.

Alternate here is maybe:
- PC to TV via HDMI (for sound plus pictures)
- TV to DAC or that Denon via Toslink (for sound)

Would costs a Toslink patch.

I'm totally fine with that, I'm just a bit confused on what I lose by switching to Toslink. It appears to only support 48/16 for 8 channels, is that correct? HDMI is 8 channels at 96/24, at least according to Win10. I'm OK with 48/16 given the other areas of optimization I have yet to focus on (totally untreated hardwood & brick room), just want to be sure I understand the trade-off.

My only remaining concern would be full compatibility w/ Atmos, DTS, etc. I'm still not real clear on how channel transmission works in surround when HDMI only reports 8 channels available. My setup is 7.2.4, currently front and surround height but will likely add center height and top center this winter. If Toslink can support that, even at 48/16, that's what I'll try next.

I'm not sure what else to suggest. What PC power supply do you have?

I don't recall anymore, and as you probably know if PSU is the issue replacing it is so much work I might as well go all new HTPC. But what a PiTA that would be - even setting aside cost, the time to install software, copy my library, etc.
 

Trell

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I'm totally fine with that, I'm just a bit confused on what I lose by switching to Toslink. It appears to only support 48/16 for 8 channels, is that correct? HDMI is 8 channels at 96/24, at least according to Win10. I'm OK with 48/16 given the other areas of optimization I have yet to focus on (totally untreated hardwood & brick room), just want to be sure I understand the trade-off.

Multichannel TOSLINK only supports lossy codecs with the best quality from Dolby Digital+ (E-AC3). That can sound quite good if properly mastered, but not as good as BluRay (properly mastered).

Edit: For completion there is a pro-format called ADAT that can support 48/16 8 channels over the same connection as TOSLINK, but that is not a consumer format in any way. Perhaps that you where thinking of?

My only remaining concern would be full compatibility w/ Atmos, DTS, etc. I'm still not real clear on how channel transmission works in surround when HDMI only reports 8 channels available. My setup is 7.2.4, currently front and surround height but will likely add center height and top center this winter. If Toslink can support that, even at 48/16, that's what I'll try next.

I'm just a 5.2 layer dude, but you can get Atmos over DD+ from your TV if the content is streamed that way and the TV supports it. Note that from last year and onward LG does not support DTS, which is a real bummer if you want to use (e)ARC.

I don't recall anymore, and as you probably know if PSU is the issue replacing it is so much work I might as well go all new HTPC. But what a PiTA that would be - even setting aside cost, the time to install software, copy my library, etc.

A high quality PSU is expensive, but the cheap ones are too in another way.
 
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b4nt

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Sort of - no issues with XBox One. Forgot to mention, this also happens with my HTPC connected to a Denon 6700 I previously owned. So, it's definitely the PC.



I'm totally fine with that, I'm just a bit confused on what I lose by switching to Toslink. It appears to only support 48/16 for 8 channels, is that correct? HDMI is 8 channels at 96/24, at least according to Win10. I'm OK with 48/16 given the other areas of optimization I have yet to focus on (totally untreated hardwood & brick room), just want to be sure I understand the trade-off.

My only remaining concern would be full compatibility w/ Atmos, DTS, etc. I'm still not real clear on how channel transmission works in surround when HDMI only reports 8 channels available. My setup is 7.2.4, currently front and surround height but will likely add center height and top center this winter. If Toslink can support that, even at 48/16, that's what I'll try next.



I don't recall anymore, and as you probably know if PSU is the issue replacing it is so much work I might as well go all new HTPC. But what a PiTA that would be - even setting aside cost, the time to install software, copy my library, etc.

XBox/one is a PC, or at least another HDMI AV source. So this points to your current HTPC, as being the source, and not the other boxes of your setups as being the cause...

You may try with Toslink between TV and the Denon. Won't cost that much, may be acceptable until you find another fix or PC.

HDMI is digital. Did you try by adding a wire between PC 0V (like from an USB port) to your Denon 0V/ground? I do not think you can do much more.
 

Berwhale

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I would check that everything is grounded well within the PC, make sure motherboard and the IO shield is correctly fitted and clean all the connections. If this doesn't fix the issue, i'd consider changing the GFX card (or adding one if you're using on-board) and maybe the PSU. Also worth changing GFX card slot if you have that option.
 
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tifune

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You may try with Toslink between TV and the Denon. Won't cost that much, may be acceptable until you find another fix or PC.

HDMI is digital. Did you try by adding a wire between PC 0V (like from an USB port) to your Denon 0V/ground? I do not think you can do much more.

I'm not familiar with the 0V option - possible to link an example?
 

b4nt

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I'm not familiar with the 0V option - possible to link an example?

Currently, I assume your PC is connected via HDMI cable to your AV setup. There, you have other boxes connected maybe via RCA. For common grounds or 0V rails, without any insulation between the boxes.

Plug a 1m USB to micro USB cable to your PC. The metallic part (shield) outside of the micro USB should so be PC 0V. Connect this shield to an RCA rear of your Denon, to an RCA outside shield/ground.

That way, any noise comming out from PC 0V rail would be partially diverted from your HDMI cable via that USB cable.
 
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