Bargain DAC Suggestions?

[amirm]

My problem with Groove is that it came out back in 2015 and there is not a lot of interest in it especially at the full retail price.

 

[claudioguillermo]

A small Chinese company called Audirect has an interesting thumb-sized USB DAC called the Audirect Beam. Earlier this year, they offered a thumb-sized DAC called the Whistle, which utilized the same SABRE9018Q2C integrated DAC/amplifier IC found in the SMSL iDEA. The Beam uses the ES9118, which furthers the system-on-chip idea by integrating blocking caps, feedback resistors, and LDOs onto the IC, further reducing the need for a good PCB layout and plan. Thus, despite Audirect's not having a known track record for putting out quality products, it'd be pretty difficult to eff up the performance of such an IC.

Essentially, ESS designed the chip for smartphone applications, whereby a company like LG can drop-in an IC without much thought and still get good performance characteristics from its audio output (LG now uses the newest generation ES9218p, which further improves on the ES9118). It'll never match truly high-end implementations because, like the 9018Q2C (used in the iDEA and Sabaj DA3), the voltage reference of both the DAC and amplifier portion is charge pump-based (could it be why we see the rising noise floor on the DA3?), but it'll get achieve good results for not much of a hurt on the wallet (the Beam is available for $99, I believe). At the very least, it should match or better the performance characteristics of the iDEA, but the one thing it offers over the iDEA is (non-MFI certified) iOS support, since it probably draws less standing power.

For the record, I own an SMSL iDEA, which I use as a replacement DAC to my laptop's (broken) headphone output. I do kind of like the idea of additional iOS support, though, which the iDEA is unable to do. There are many thumb-sized DAC/amps that use the SABRE9018Q2C as a drop-in chip (Zorloo ZuperDAC-S, NextDrive Spectra, Beyerdynamic Impacto, Cozoy TAKT Pro, Onkyo/Pioneer DAPs), but few are using the ES9118 (only the Hidizs AP200 DAP comes to mind at the moment). I would be curious to see whether integration of more critical components will improve performance significantly.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the detailed write-up. You did such a nice job there that you enticed me to order it. I got it from Amazon which turned out to be more expensive since they charged sales tax! Total was $114 so I hope it does a lot better than SMSL IDEA (which is $85 including prime shipping).

It is also on slow train from China claiming delivery well into August....

 

[duo8]

There's also the Shanling M0 with the ES9218P.
It also functions as a USB DAC.

 

[Ron Texas]

Yes. That meme is prolific. And complete BS in my experience.



Where else would an audible "trend" show up other than in the freq response?
The only other thing that comes to mind is IMD due to driving a device to clipping (and aliasing).

If it's BS, prove it. Saying the effect must be in the frequency response is short sited. The logical extension of what you are saying is everything sounds exactly the same. There are people who believe that.

 

[dc655321]

If it's BS, prove it. Saying the effect must be in the frequency response is short sited. The logical extension of what you are saying is everything sounds exactly the same. There are people who believe that.

Beliefs are impossible to prove.

Prove the "Sabre dacs display glare" meme? How does one define "glare"?
How do you measure that - with a Glare-O-Meter?

How about you take a look through several of the Sabre-based devices measured on this site and point out the characteristics of glare.
There are several examples: Dragonfly Black, SMSL iDEA, NX4 DSD, etc.

Or maybe take a look at the measurements of AK-based devices and their intrinsic smoothness and "warmth"?

I have not seen many people on this site proclaim everything sounds the same.
But I have seen, and agree with, the notion that well-measuring dacs produce very similar sound when level-matched.

 

[Ron Texas]

Beliefs are impossible to prove.

Prove the "Sabre dacs display glare" meme? How does one define "glare"?
How do you measure that - with a Glare-O-Meter?

How about you take a look through several of the Sabre-based devices measured on this site and point out the characteristics of glare.
There are several examples: Dragonfly Black, SMSL iDEA, NX4 DSD, etc.

Or maybe take a look at the measurements of AK-based devices and their intrinsic smoothness and "warmth"?

I have not seen many people on this site proclaim everything sounds the same.
But I have seen, and agree with, the notion that well-measuring dacs produce very similar sound when level-matched.

I had a Dragonfly black and found it to be too harsh to listen to on speakers. The sound was obvious within 5 minutes. It was OK with headphones. My Grace M9xx (which is an AK4490 based device) is the same way, but not so extreme. I don't know if it is what people call glare, but it is obvious on loud high pitched notes in female vocals. Perhaps the headphone output of the Grace is different from the line out and perhaps the DF Black headphone jack doesn't do a great job driving an amplifier load (some tell me it should make no difference).

It's impolite and dismissive to use the word meme in this context as it implies those who hear the effect are merely imitating others who also say they hear it. Then again, that's typical internet behavior because you don't get to see the reaction of the person you are addressing. Just because it doesn't show up in the measurements used here is not proof it can't be measured someway. The measurements used here are very useful, but you can't say there are no other possibilities.

Perhaps the impossible belief is yours...

 

[dc655321]

It's impolite and dismissive to use the word meme in this context as it implies those who hear the effect are merely imitating others who also say they hear it.

I think "meme" and the connotations inferred are appropriate.

I've seen reviews characterizing the DF Black as "warm" and the DF Red as "bright" and "clear".
You say it's "too harsh" and "obviously" so.

I used to own the DF Black and thought it was no better than the headphone out of my phone at the time.
I don't recall it being bright or warm. I did notice it picked up noise from my laptop, so it got returned.

If an acoustic characteristic is audibly "obvious", it ought to be measurably so as well.
Instrumentation is much more sensitive than our ears and the squishy gray matter between them.

Were you driving the DF (and Grace) to clipping (i.e. flat-topping the signal peaks)?
That may do the trick for "glare"...

But that would apply for most similar systems driven out of linearity - they too would clip.
It's not exclusive to Sabre dacs.

Perhaps the impossible belief is yours...

I don't recall saying anything about impossibility.

 

[Sal1950]

I had a Dragonfly black and found it to be too harsh to listen to on speakers. The sound was obvious within 5 minutes. It was OK with headphones.

Possibly the result of some inappropriate loading into the amp? Although no fan of the Dragonfly's, they shouldn't have any "obvious" sound of there own. Another member posted something similar.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...agonfly-black-not-playing-well-with-amp.3367/
Amir's measurements showed some output level limitations, etc.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...dea-and-audioquest-dragonfly-black-dacs.2397/

 

[amirm]

Let's not have debates in this thread please.

 

[Ron Texas]

Were you driving the DF (and Grace) to clipping (i.e. flat-topping the signal peaks)?
That may do the trick for "glare"...

But that would apply for most similar systems driven out of linearity - they too would clip.
It's not exclusive to Sabre dacs.

Clipping is a possibility. It would be measurable if I had something to measure it with. It's unlikely the input side is clipping because when I use the Grace with headphones it is fed the full signal by Audirvana. However, the output volume is at lower levels, 75 instead of 90 (99 is maximum). That might indicate the analog output is clipping on line out. It's worth experimenting with, setting hardware volume lower and the player higher. Good point.

 

[claudioguillermo]

Thanks for the detailed write-up. You did such a nice job there that you enticed me to order it. I got it from Amazon which turned out to be more expensive since they charged sales tax! Total was $114 so I hope it does a lot better than SMSL IDEA (which is $85 including prime shipping). It is also on slow train from China claiming delivery well into August....

Looking forward to seeing the results! I hope it does well. I think these fully-integrated ICs might just be the way to go for these tiny DACs. It's nice to see the trickle down effect of the smartphone market raising the bar for audio.

There's also the Shanling M0 with the ES9218P. It also functions as a USB DAC.

Oh, totally forgot about that one! And it seems like it's pretty reasonably priced as well at $99. With so many features, I'm wondering how much noise it actually has, though. The spec sheet makes things hopeful, as it states a residual noise of <3 uV in high gain mode.

 

[duo8]

Personally I'm still hoping for measurements of those $9 USB dongles.

 

[frogmeat69]

Got the SMSL SU-8 in today, and so far I like it. Only problem I have is a slight clicking noise when switching to a DSD file, otherwise it sounds great through my iCan Pro with headphones and my cheap Logitech powered speakers.
Amir, the offer still stands that in a week or two if you want to do measurements on it we'll work on doing just that. Wasn't sure, but thought I saw someone else had it and was gonna send it to you, either way.
I also have an iFi iOne and the Shanling M0 if that would create any interest.

 

[amirm]

Amir, the offer still stands that in a week or two if you want to do measurements on it we'll work on doing just that. Wasn't sure, but thought I saw someone else had it and was gonna send it to you, either way.

Thanks a bunch. Yes, someone has drop shipped it to me and it was already coming. So probably here soon.

 

[amirm]

I also have an iFi iOne and the Shanling M0 if that would create any interest.

I am interested in those! Please start a conversation with me in a week or two and we can arrange for mailing. Thanks a lot.

 

[Krunok]

I have gone through this entire thread and still do not know what is a good 150.00 under Dac, maybe just buy the focusrite 2i2 or solo

Topping D10.

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...iew-and-measurements-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/

 

[frogmeat69]

I have gone through this entire thread and still do not know what is a good 150.00 under Dac, maybe just buy the focusrite 2i2 or solo

I like the Topping D10, sounds great and has a nice easy to read display, plays DSD, easy to set up, and under $100. If you wait for Massdrop, you can get it for $74.99, a bargain.

 

[Krusty09]

Hello,

New guy here. Great spot you have here. Glad i found it. These seem to be around a lot and even at regular price they seem to be worth it. So if you can test this it would seem that you get a lot for the money if tested well. Just a thought.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BEHRINGER-...Control-USB-/183154929934?hash=item2aa4e2710e

 

[amirm]

Hello,

New guy here. Great spot you have here. Glad i found it. These seem to be around a lot and even at regular price they seem to be worth it. So if you can test this it would seem that you get a lot for the money if tested well. Just a thought.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BEHRINGER-...Control-USB-/183154929934?hash=item2aa4e2710e

Hi there. Welcome to the forum. That is one cute looking box! Quick research shows that it only plays 16 bit at 44.1/48 kHz which is a bummer. Still, that large volume control would be nice to have. Please remind me in a couple of weeks and I will purchase and test it. Right now I have a lot to test.