This seems fair to me. The limitations of the DAC in this line of Bluesound streamers are now well known to ASR participants, even those of us who on other grounds find the streamer to be a good one. They might want to consider a version without a DAC, at a somewhat lower price, if they don't want to go through the trouble of including one that competes with the many excellent alternatives now in the market.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Bluesound Node Review (Streamer)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
This seems fair to me. The limitations of the DAC in this line of Bluesound streamers are now well known to ASR participants, even those of us who on other grounds find the streamer to be a good one. They might want to consider a version without a DAC, at a somewhat lower price, if they don't want to go through the trouble of including one that competes with the many excellent alternatives now in the market.
"Why is it so hard to have an affordable streaming endpoint+DAC with high SINAD and no compromises?"
I'd like to have a unicorn ride up to my door every morning with my favorite flavor of ice cream. It isn't going to happen. Seriously though, it seems to be hard even for audiophiles to appreciate the technical challenges of the Bluesound (and Sonos) offerings. Make a box and develop the software that streams a couple dozen services (each one costing a hefty license fee that Bluesound has to pay). Add lots of connectivity capability, including HDMI (costs per-company and per-unit fees and royalties). Develop, test and support apps for iOS, Android, MacOS and Windows ($$$). Add Multi-Room sound ($$$$). Add home automation interfaces ($$$$). Test everything to make sure it measures properly, functions as advertised and passes government (FCC in the US) regulations.
Oh...and price and market the product so that it continues to sell, even when the proprietor of a famous audio website says "the internal DAC sucks and the app didn't work for me. The covers are off and the product is weak."
I ain't defending Bluesound...it's a tough business and they know more than anyone the merits of their business case. But in a world where everything comes at a price, the fact is that "no compromises" isn't going to happen. The best you can hope for is a mix of different elements that people will buy...just as it always is.
I'd like to have a unicorn ride up to my door every morning with my favorite flavor of ice cream. It isn't going to happen. Seriously though, it seems to be hard even for audiophiles to appreciate the technical challenges of the Bluesound (and Sonos) offerings. Make a box and develop the software that streams a couple dozen services (each one costing a hefty license fee that Bluesound has to pay). Add lots of connectivity capability, including HDMI (costs per-company and per-unit fees and royalties). Develop, test and support apps for iOS, Android, MacOS and Windows ($$$). Add Multi-Room sound ($$$$). Add home automation interfaces ($$$$). Test everything to make sure it measures properly, functions as advertised and passes government (FCC in the US) regulations.
Oh...and price and market the product so that it continues to sell, even when the proprietor of a famous audio website says "the internal DAC sucks and the app didn't work for me. The covers are off and the product is weak."
I ain't defending Bluesound...it's a tough business and they know more than anyone the merits of their business case. But in a world where everything comes at a price, the fact is that "no compromises" isn't going to happen. The best you can hope for is a mix of different elements that people will buy...just as it always is.
Still available in the UK. However given the semiconductor crunch at the moment who knows when any device is actually available or when stock will ship to distributors.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2020
- Messages
- 943
- Likes
- 1,255
I see. You are drawing a line in the sand for what is "plug and play" for "you", but proclaiming it as some sort of universal truth that only the bluesound meets. I think alot of people here measure speakers for positioning, use dsp, integrate subs etc., plug and play is not so cut and dry.
I mean if you want simplest lifestyle plug and play this is certainly for you
https://store.google.com/au/product/nest_audio?hl=en-GB
Get real. I'm not drawing any "lines in the sand." And the "Google Nest" scarcely approaches what the Node offers, regardless of how subpar @amirm believes it to be.
I'm discovering just how subjective this joint can be, and how tribal. @amirm pans a component, and immediately the Site Canon becomes how bad that component is and how it's comparable to Echo Dot. Jeebus. Let me just say again, I like mine, its shortcomings are easily overcome, and I'm not coming back to this thread.
By the way, I've yet to find another streamer that supports both Qobuz and Idagio so painlessly. So anyone who wants a streamer shouldn't regard this as a headless panther. More like a Streamer Lion King. Or something.
Last edited:
I think I start to grasp what is the problem here, It's partly the doom of success, and probably a company that let sales people taking too many decisions. What we seem to have here is a product that wasn't ready at launch on the software side but decided to go ahead under the promise of software fixes.
When I say doom of success, I believe they don't really need reinventing this thing, but feel the need to release a new one every four years or so, to stay on the public eye, In this case, they stretched so much the idea of a streamer that it's now a full fledged preamp, with an extremely flexible set of features that they felt the urge to release even if the software development was not complete. All the basics are paid for, but software is what's costly, so they probably felt that releasing it would trigger an income of funds, which in return would speed up the developpment, if they felt solid about proofs of concept in hardware. I bet some in house engineers are very unhappy right now.
There is danger in wanting to offers too much, it can kinda denature the product, but where do you go from there if you can't improve the core? You add stuff, but in this case it's not a streamer anymore but a preamp with a streaming feature, that's dangerous, the more you add, the more people expect. In my case, old model, I would never in a million years think that a remote was relevant for this and would never tought it would be cool to plug an analog source in it. This changes everything. For the first version, using a remote for this would be like considering if my router needs a remote control. I would certainly never have used it and it would be lost by now, the Ipad is my remote and I need the whole UI every time I want to stream music so an extra one would be absolutely useless... But that's where offering too much can be a problem. It doesn't want to be a streamer anymore
When I say doom of success, I believe they don't really need reinventing this thing, but feel the need to release a new one every four years or so, to stay on the public eye, In this case, they stretched so much the idea of a streamer that it's now a full fledged preamp, with an extremely flexible set of features that they felt the urge to release even if the software development was not complete. All the basics are paid for, but software is what's costly, so they probably felt that releasing it would trigger an income of funds, which in return would speed up the developpment, if they felt solid about proofs of concept in hardware. I bet some in house engineers are very unhappy right now.
There is danger in wanting to offers too much, it can kinda denature the product, but where do you go from there if you can't improve the core? You add stuff, but in this case it's not a streamer anymore but a preamp with a streaming feature, that's dangerous, the more you add, the more people expect. In my case, old model, I would never in a million years think that a remote was relevant for this and would never tought it would be cool to plug an analog source in it. This changes everything. For the first version, using a remote for this would be like considering if my router needs a remote control. I would certainly never have used it and it would be lost by now, the Ipad is my remote and I need the whole UI every time I want to stream music so an extra one would be absolutely useless... But that's where offering too much can be a problem. It doesn't want to be a streamer anymore
D700
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2018
- Messages
- 311
- Likes
- 370
Squeezebox was doing all that via web service 15 years ago
That to me is a problem. equating in such a strong sentence poor SINAD at 1K/2V (what the red bucket is) equal poor engineering. It's one metric, more important in some products than other, but scaling engineering competence based solely on this (I'm not saying you generally do, but in this sentence you do). Not every products aim for the same objectives. Not everybody can hear this "atrocity" in design neither. There is much more to electronic engineering than this. Unless I misunderstood your statement?
It does for me.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2020
- Messages
- 943
- Likes
- 1,255
Get real. I'm not drawing any "lines in the sand." And the "Google Nest" scarcely approaches what the Node offers, regardless of how subpar @amirm believes it to be.
I'm discovering just how subjective this joint can be, and how tribal. @amirm pans a component, and immediately the Site Canon becomes how bad that component is and how it's comparable to Echo Dot. Jeebus. Let me just say again, I like mine, its shortcomings are easily overcome, and I'm not coming back to this thread.
By the way, I've yet to find another streamer that supports both Qobuz and Idagio so painlessly. So anyone who wants a streamer shouldn't regard this as a headless panther. More like a Streamer Lion King. Or something.
Glad you could enlighten us on how the forum behaves.
On the flip side - time and time again a component receives an unfavourable review leading an owner to lose all objectivty and sucumb to rage/tantrum.
If you enjoy your gear, who cares what others think? All the info is there for people to make their own choices, Iam sure people will still pick this device. Look at the etherregen etc.
respice finem
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2021
- Messages
- 1,867
- Likes
- 3,777
On my HTPC, I use the touchpad, or the TV remote via FLIRC. On the Amazon FireTV stick, its remote, etc. Surely, it's functionally the same with an app, when this app works, but it at least seems less "volatile" than the "app world". I'm old fashioned, I know.
Last edited:
Which DAC are you using with your Node? Planning on getting a Gustard X16 to pair with my New Node
buxtehude
Member
Yes, this is precisely why I come to ASR for. Keep up the great work amirm!
Some people question if the Node is a flawed product and if it deserves the headless panther.
Well first of all, Armir = God on ASR so if he gives a headless panther we have to deal with it
But on a more serious note:
We can discuss that the DAC is not broken but it certainly is not SOTA which it should be in a product in this price range nowadays.
Armir could not get the app software running and more people complain that it is a PITA to get it up and running. Probably this is the main reason for the headless panther.
This version of the Node has a HDMI ARC connection so you can connect your TV and have the audio over your soundsystem, unfortunately Bluesound OS has a lip-sync issue because there is a deliberate delay in the processing of the signal.
https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360046724114-Lip-Sync-Node-2i-digital-out- ?page=1#comments
So the HDMI connection is useless I guess (was not tested by Armir)
This version of the Node has an USB out connector so you can hook up another DAC over USB, unfortunately Bluesound states: *Available for free with future software update, so it is not working, maybe in the future.
Finally there are many claims that USB file management is poor in the Bluesound OS.
Why did Bluesound bother to introduce a new model if all the improvements over the old model are flawed and the existing problems are not solved?
Don’t say god, I see it more like, we are are a guest visiting Amir his workplace and we share the same interests but do not always agree with each other.
As I mentioned in my post, rpi4+Topping E30 is the benchmark for half the price. And they were unable to meet that bar. It's not a unsolvable problem.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #176
This is what it takes to get me to give a good review to a streamer: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-element-i-usb-dac-streamer-review.10360/
Of course I did. I streamed the test tones from Roon player to it. Bits went to it over Ethernet and played using internal and external DAC.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #177
What do you think is going to change if I waited? Phase of the moon has something to do with it? The app doesn't work anymore with the box. Networking is fine because I can stream content to it. I did the usual restarting of the app and device and it didn't fix it. My job is done at this point. Stuff like this should be plug and play. I put in far more effort than that and it didn't work. I wrote up what I did and that was that.
If you mean contacting manufacturers and praying and waiting for a response, no, I don't do that. I have dozens of gear to test and I need to move on. If the company cares, they would see this review, contact me and send me another box to test. If they don't, then that is that.
FYI, I originally reached out to the company back in 2018 I think. They promised to send me a sample to test. They never did. I reminded them and still got nothing. Eventually a member sent in the 2i to test.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #178
I can push stream both of those services from Roon to any streamer. You only have that requirement if you want to use the UI and services of the streamer. Those of us who use other architectures, don't need anything special in the streamer other than taking bits from the network, and feeding a DAC.
But the UI and service is what we are paying for, that's what really Bluesound is selling. Roon is expensive.
Whatever its merits, Logitech couldn't make the business case and shuttered the product as an ongoing commercial offering. (Homemade Raspberry Pi doesn't count. Even though it's a neat hack, plug-and-play it most certainly is not.)
Perhaps Bluesound will avoid that fate.
Similar threads
