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Which bookshelf crossover (non-DSP) provides highest performance under $2,500? Acoustic Energy AE1?

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mel

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I think one thing to be aware about the Navis is, it is likely designed with target audience as “HiFi” therefore “mid-field (1.5 to 2.5m+)” listening distances.

For those who enjoy listening at low-to-moderate volume levels. I would worry that I will not use enough of its “gain” to reach its “sweet spot”.
One video I watched awhile ago mentioned the Navis sounding “lifeless” and “dull” at low volumes, and at louder volumes it sounded like they expected, but then it was over powering the room.
Now this could be just one persons opinion, but it made sense to me when I heard the comment.
The person who made the comment returned Navis, and moved on to Genelec The Ones.
The Genelec are similar to the Navis. They don't specify sensitivity, but they provide switches.
Sensitivity adjustment
The input sensitivity (playback level) of the 8010A has two alternative settings, normal and -10 dB. The normal setting is factory default and the low- er, -10 dB setting can be selected by turning the “SENSITIVITY -10 dB” switch on the back panel to “ON”. The output levels are 100 dB @ -6dBu and 90 dB @ -6 dBu respectively. Choose the setting that gives the desired playback level and good resolution of the volume control
 
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mel

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I tried to find the sensitivity ratings, but they are not readily accessible. I did find this in the owners manual:
I think sensitivity is highly model dependent, which requires careful investigation. I found this one the highest end The Ones. Just the way the information is presented, tells me a lot. The companies are "sensitive" about "sensitivity ratings and features". 1624875800004.png1624875800022.png1624875800039.png1624875800055.png1624875800101.png1624875800117.png1624875800148.png1624875800179.png1624875800194.png1624875800070.png1624875800086.png1624875800133.png1624875800164.png

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...f44ec7867f674a109a/W371A_operating_manual.pdf

W371A

Analogue signal input connector XLR female, balanced 10 kOhm
Maximum analogue input signal
Analogue input sensitivity (100 dB SPL at 1 m) Adjustment range
Digital signal input connector XLR female 110 Ohm Digital signal output / Thru connector XLR male 110 Ohm
Control network Type
Connection and cable System calibration
Input/output connections
pin 1 gnd, pin 2 non-inverting, pin 3 inverting
+25.0 dBu
-6 dBu
+48 dBu to -6 dBu AES/EBU Single wire AES/EBU Single wire
Proprietary GLM network
2 RJ45, standard CAT5 cable or later AutoCal
1 x analog XLR input / 1 x analog thru, 1 x XLR digital AES/EBU input / 1 x digital thru
1624875800004.png
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Digital audio input Word length Sample rate
Digital input sensitivity (100 dB SPL at 1 m) Digital input maximum attenuation
Positive input gain selection (via GLM)
16 - 24 bits 32 - 192 kHz -30 dBFS
48 dB
(+6, +12, +18 dB)
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mel

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Well that is to be expected, and therefore most will keep their listening position fixed by using a “listening” chair etc.

I am not too fussy so I can move around the room while music is playing, and my mind can process the changes in sound and I am fine with that.

With enough testing and adjustments I’m sure you will find a good compromise between positions to keep the settings fixed.
Or maybe you are more fussy than I am. . .
You made me realize something new. Obviously, speakers must be suited and configured to many factors. One thing I never realized is that some speakers require skill to use effectively. You seem to like studio monitors, like Genelec. A person skilled in using studio monitors, e.g., music professional, would use different speakers carefully and skillfully.

I don't know how to properly express what I am looking for, so I will stumble over my words. I am looking for a "zoom-in" pair of speakers. Most of the time, I am not consciously aware of music, although I am unconsciously aware. My music listening is on cruise control. However, some remarkable music piece breaks through to my consciousness. I then want to switch to high-powered speakers to use like a microscope. After inspecting the music, I want to go away from the high-powered speakers.

Adjacent to my desk is the most convenient place for "zoom-in" speakers. I am probably referring to studio monitors by "Zoom-in". I perceive studio monitors as professional tools, so I am hesitant about studio monitors. But, the goal might be similar. I would just use studio monitors briefly. Music pros spend all day with monitors.

Speakers close to my desk would need to be smaller, 3-driver type, that have adequate bass so a subwoofer is unnecessary. My guess is a size smaller than my subwoofers, which are 10" (250mm) cubes. They should also have features that exploit my RME DAC capabilities, or are at least most compatible. Powerful speakers are unimportant to me.

I get this feeling that horn speakers might be better for a "zoom-in" purpose. Horn speakers have very high sensitivity and require low amplifier power. They are also dynamic and lively. Klipsch The Fives are not for me, though.
 
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mononoaware

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I tried to find the sensitivity ratings, but they are not readily accessible. I did find this in the owners manual:

Interesting, but certainly this would have been adjusted if the unhappy user was having trouble with volume levels.
I think it was more to do with the drivers being used and their SPL needed for optimum performance.
The drivers being used do appear to be very similar to other passive Elac models, and rightly so to make development more cost efficient.
 
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mel

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Interesting, but certainly this would have been adjusted if the unhappy user was having trouble with volume levels.
I think it was more to do with the drivers being used and their SPL needed for optimum performance.
The drivers being used do appear to be very similar to other passive Elac models, and rightly so to make development more cost efficient.

I don't know who is the target market. Perhaps, to also support AV? I don't really know.

I don't fall into the AV camp. I don't want a dual purpose system. I don't want to use audio equipment to hear explosions.

I don't own a TV or watch movies, so I get very suspicious when audio equipment smacks of that. HDMI is an almost automatic disqualified for me. XLR almost always makes the speaker a contender.

I don't blast music at high volumes, either. I am probably outside of the Navis target market. I love bass, but I only to hear it, not to feel it.
 

mononoaware

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You seem to like studio monitors, like Genelec. A person skilled in using studio monitors, e.g., music professional, would use different speakers carefully and skillfully.

In my experience, especially at low-to-moderate volume (SPL) levels, Studio monitors give you a refined, detailed and accurate sound for much less cost than typical HiFi equipment of equal performance.
And it is all in an well optimized properly engineered package.
If something isn’t right you send them back in a box, they really are minimalist, there is minimal troubleshooting and minimal things to go wrong.
All this and they are designed to be bullet-proof, as that is what professionals expect.
Genelec is just one such brand, but I would give equal merit to Adam Audio, Neumann and HEDD, all these brands are very serious about their professional products and it shows when their studio monitors are analysed.

I then want to switch to high-powered speakers to use like a microscope.

I would say studio monitors do exactly this, provide the ability to use a magnifier to see into the mix.

Neutral/even response together with higher quality drivers of Studio monitors results in more easily perceived detail, which is experienced even when listening off axis/walking around the room.
Even with this extra detail, fatigue will not be an issue as long as your in room response looks like a downwards slope.
 

mononoaware

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I don't know who is the target market. Perhaps, to also support AV? I don't really know.

I don't fall into the AV camp. I don't want a dual purpose system. I don't want to use audio equipment to hear explosions.

I don't own a TV or watch movies, so I get very suspicious when audio equipment smacks of that. HDMI is an almost automatic disqualified for me. XLR almost always makes the speaker a contender.

I don't blast music at high volumes, either. I am probably outside of the Navis target market.

I agree, I need none of that.

I love bass, but I only to hear it, not to feel it.

I think Studio monitors are for you.
They are designed to be neutral and brutally honest, all you would need to do (which is optional) is add more low-frequency extension (DSP/EQ/Subwoofers) or reduce the highs with built-in high-shelf cut (-2dB etc).
 
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In my experience, especially at low-to-moderate volume (SPL) levels, Studio monitors give you a refined, detailed and accurate sound for much less cost than typical HiFi equipment of equal performance.
And it is all in an well optimized properly engineered package.
If something isn’t right you send them back in a box, they really are minimalist, there is minimal troubleshooting and minimal things to go wrong.
All this and they are designed to be bullet-proof, as that is what professionals expect.
Genelec is just one such brand, but I would give equal merit to Adam Audio, Neumann and HEDD, all these brands are very serious about their professional products and it shows when their studio monitors are analysed.



I would say studio monitors do exactly this, provide the ability to use a magnifier to see into the mix.

Neutral/even response together with higher quality drivers of Studio monitors results in more easily perceived detail, which is experienced even when listening off axis/walking around the room.
Even with this extra detail, fatigue will not be an issue as long as your in room response looks like a downwards slope.
A very strong argument. I think each model would need to be examined to understand the differentiation. Studio monitors are very purposefully designed. I don't have that level of understanding. I would guess that a very savvy choice could be made, if I knew what I was specifically looking for.
 

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I get this feeling that horn speakers might be better for a "zoom-in" purpose. Horn speakers have very high sensitivity and require low amplifier power.

Horn speakers are. . . a peculiar taste.
Some will say they sound awfully unnatural, while others think they are superior in many ways and refuse to listen to any other design.

To be safe I would recommend going with more conventional wave-guide design.
 
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Horn speakers are. . . a peculiar taste.
Some will say they sound awfully unnatural, while others think they are superior in many ways and refuse to listen to any other design.

To play it safe I would recommend going with more conventional wave-guide design.
Is sensitivity an important factor, like something to draw a line on? I don't really care about power that much. Can sensitivity be used to eliminate inappropriate choices?
 

mononoaware

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Is sensitivity an important factor, like something to draw a line on?

In the case if horns.
The horn itself (like with a megaphone) helps to amplify the sound of the driver (tweeter or compression driver).
Then usually a sensitive mid-woofer driver is chosen to pair with the horn-loaded tweeter.

Klipsch has many examples of this design in their “Heritage” range, and these speakers are most well known for their horn design with high sensitivity.

The end result, the high sensitivity horn design produces hyper-real or “more extreme” dynamics (subtleties between quiet and loud).
So in a way more dynamic range, and some claim the subtle change in dynamics sound more “realistic” than conventional speaker design.
 
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In the case if horns.
The horn itself (like with a megaphone) helps to amplify the sound of the driver (tweeter or compression driver).
Then usually a sensitive mid-woofer driver is chosen to pair with the horn-loaded tweeter.

Klipsch has many examples of this design in their “Heritage” range, and these speakers are most well known for their horn design with high sensitivity.

The end result, the high sensitivity horn design produces hyper-real or “more extreme” dynamics (subtleties between quite and loud).
So in a way more dynamic range, and some claim the subtle change in dynamics sound more “realistic” than conventional speaker design.
I understand that to mean that sensitivity is a secondary, rather than primary consideration. The decision is more about the whole, than the parts?
 

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I understand that to mean that sensitivity is a secondary, rather than primary consideration. The decision is more about the whole, than the parts?

You can think about it simply.
Sensitivity is most commonly needed when you need to throw sound a long distance with the available amplification.
It is common with PA (public address) equipment, think about public events/concerts.
This high sensitivity and high efficiency design was needed to achieve the desired volume.

In my experience that is the only real benefit of horn speakers, they can go louder with limited amplification.
I personally do not like the sound of horn speakers so I will not go into more details about its “particular” sound.

Sometimes sensitivity is useful to “match” equipment, for example to make sure your speakers and your subwoofer can both operate in their comfortable range when used together with RME ADI-2 DAC.

Usually there is not much issue , but if you intend to pair your REL subwoofer (more consumer grade) with Genelec monitors (professional grade) it would be a good idea to double check you can run them both from RME DAC and both the speakers and subwoofers operate comfortably.
 
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You can think about it simply.
Sensitivity is most commonly needed when you need to throw sound a long distance with the available amplification.
It is common with PA (public address) equipment, think about public events/concerts.
This high sensitivity and high efficiency design was needed to achieve the desired volume.

In my experience that is the only real benefit of horn speakers, they can go louder with limited amplification.
I personally do not like the sound of horn speakers so I will not go into more details about its “particular” sound.
I understand, now. No, I don't want a horn.
As you pointed out, I don't want a Navis-like-grunt, either that requires a lot of power to sound its best.
Now, I see where I got confused. I inferred the Navis was a passive crossover, because it sounds better at higher power consumption. Navis is an active speaker, so the crossover electronics should not impose a large energy drain or inefficiency.

What does this mean? The BASH amplifiers (hybrid class D and A/B) are better at higher power levels? I am not connecting the dots.

This is a good BASH description, but does not explain Navis.
 
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mononoaware

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What does this mean? The BASH amplifiers are better at higher power levels? I am not connecting the dots.

Some kind of new amplifier design.
I am not familiar with it, but it seems to do away with high frequency filtering of Class-D, but still be more efficient than Class AB.

I would not put much weight into amplifier “types”.
A well designed good amplifier is a good amplifier, it does not matter what ”Class” of design in particular.
What is most certain is the difference in efficiency (power consumption).
Modern Class-D is the most efficient followed by Class AB, and then Class A which is the oldest design together with Tube amplifier design which can typically consume 200w+ at all times (if you forget to switch it off).
 
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FeddyLost

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I don't know how to properly express what I am looking for, so I will stumble over my words. I am looking for a "zoom-in" pair of speakers. Most of the time, I am not consciously aware of music, although I am unconsciously aware. My music listening is on cruise control. However, some remarkable music piece breaks through to my consciousness.
I will recommend as before - try out to listen PSI monitors that you can afford. They are active, fully analog, have only LF and input level controls.
I think they might suit your needs and tastes.
 
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I will recommend as before - try out to listen PSI monitors that you can afford. They are active, fully analog, have only LF and input level controls.
I think they might suit your needs and tastes.

I would choose this one. Hard for me to tell what I am buying. I immediately relate to the front bass port slot. My A3s are front ported, so the rear wall is a non factor. My desk butts up against a wall.

https://www.psiaudio.swiss/a17-m-powerful-near-field-studio-monitor/

Thanks for reminding me. I have this "declarative" attitude. I try to gather all the parameters into a cohesive concept before choosing a product. I feel products automatically fall out after all the parameters are declared.
 
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How do I go about comparing Genelec 8331A and PSI A17M ? The functionality is written for recording professionals. I have never used a music editing program. I don't know what information or control pros seek, or whether that information/control is something that I can actually benefit from.

The only thing that jumps out at me is the 2way vs. 3way (Genelec) drivers.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...aa0993bf352e4e95bfa/8331_operating_manual.pdf


https://www.psiaudio.swiss/a17-m-powerful-near-field-studio-monitor/
 
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I think I need to approach a studio monitor from my RME DAC .
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=31038
  • "Short Delay" (SD) filters had a
    • audible phasing/distortion like quality and
    • sounded hollow and
    • artificial with
    • some loss in detail and dynamics.
  • The "Sharp" filter
    • did not have this and
    • sounded good across the board and
    • seems the most balanced.
  • The "NOS" filter has a
    • obvious roll-off in the top frequencies but this seems to
    • draw attention to and accentuate
      • the upper-bass/lower-mids and
      • present what's going on there more clearly
        • (kind of like a "Sennheiser veil" effect),
      • good for listening to modulation effects,
      • reverb amount/wetness,
      • oscillator beating and
      • LFO movement in analog synths etc and is of course the
      • best filter for pure tracking monitoring because it has the lowest latency.

About the "Auto Reference" mode, I found it to make the
  • sound somewhat soft and muted with
  • slight loss in detail and impact,
  • this might have to do with, in my case, how the
    • BM6A's built in amps respond to the signal coming in and might like to be
      • hit a little harder than the auto ref mode is set to provide.
    • I'm not concerned with coaxing the max SNR out of the ADI-2 since it's
      • SNR rating is absolutely outstanding and at -35/-20 db there is
        • no audible noise introduced, here the concern is rather that the
      • auto ref mode changes the sound signature negatively
        • so I'd rather set it manually and adjust the volume by myself.
        • This isn't a problem for me since the auto ref (thankfully!) is completely optional and this is how I prefer to do it and always have anyways, only thing I'm a
  • bit annoyed with is that there isn't a +4 db reference level setting
    • which is fairly standard in a lot of audio equipment and is what my
    • BM6A's expect over XLR.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/understanding-signal-levels-audio-gear/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES3 - Digital XLR (AES/EBU) actually has a protocol.
  • RME ADI-2 has a switchable Channel Status to make it fully AES/EBU compatible
https://www.community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/922165#/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_level

The alignment level in an audio signal chain or on an audio recording is a defined anchor point that represents a reasonable or typical level. It does not represent a particular sound level or signal level or digital representation, but it can be defined as corresponding to particular levels in each of these domains.

For example, alignment level is commonly 0 dBu (Equal to 0.775 Volts RMS) in broadcast chains and in professional audio what is commonly known as 0 VU, which is +4 dBu (equal to 1.227 Volts RMS) in places where the signal exists as analogue voltage. Under normal situations, the "0VU" reference allowed for a headroom of 18 dB or more above the reference level without significant distortion. This is largely due to the use of slow responding VU meters in almost all analogue professional audio equipment which, by their design, and by specification responded to an average level, not peak levels. It most commonly is at −18 dB FS (18 dB below full scale digital) on digital recordings for programme exchange, in accordance with EBU recommendations. Digital equipment must use peak reading metering systems to avoid severe digital distortion caused by the signal going beyond full scale or maximum digital levels. 24-bit original or master recordings commonly have alignment level at −24 dBFS to allow extra headroom, which can then be reduced to match the available headroom of the final medium by audio level compression. FM broadcasts usually have only 9 dB of headroom as recommended by the EBU, but digital broadcasts, which could operate with 18 dB of headroom, given their low noise floor even in difficult reception areas, currently operate in a state of confusion, with some transmitting at maximum level while others operate at a much lower level even though they carry material that has been compressed for compatibility with the lower dynamic range of FM transmissions.

At $1,100 this Dynaudio BM 6A 6.7 inch Active Studio Monitor seems like a deal, on the surface.
  • Powered:Yes
  • Power Configuration:Bi-amped
  • LF Driver Size:6.7" Woofer
  • LF Driver Type:polypropylene Cone
  • HF Driver Size:1" Tweeter
  • HF Driver Type:Silk dome
  • LF Driver Power Amp:100W
  • HF Driver Power Amp:100W
  • Total Power:200W
  • Frequency Response:41Hz-21kHz
  • Crossover Frequency:24 dB/octave @ 2200Hz
  • Maximum Peak SPL:118 dB SPL @ 1m
  • Input Types:1 x XLR
  • Enclosure Type:Sealed
  • Enclosure Material:Elegant Matte
  • Height:13.3"
  • Width:8.5"
  • Depth:12.6"
  • Weight:24.2 lbs.
  • Manufacturer Part Number:949457

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=31854
I use a ADI-2 Pro (FS R Black Edition) connected via Analogue Out (XLR) to a pair of Genelec 8040B monitors.

The Genelecs have a feature called ISS, i.e.:
Intelligent Signal Sensing. This automatically powers the monitors down to standby mode after a certain time when playback has ended. This feature worked well with my previous DAC (Resonessence Invicta). Now comes the strange thing:

Situation 1)
ADI-2 Pro is powered on (white light ring around the power button), no input signal for ca. 50 minutes:
the Genelecs go into standby mode (as expected)

Situation 2)
ADI-2 Pro switched off (red light ring around the power button), no input signal since any time longer than 50 minutes: the Genelecs remain fully powered on.

In addition, I did this test:
Situation 1). Waited until the Genelecs went to sleep (green LEDs off). Now I switched off the RME ADI-2 Pro (so that the red light ring occurs). After less than one minute, the Genelecs woke up (green LEDs on).

There must be something going on at the balanced outputs of the ADI if the unit is in standby mode (red light ring), that prevents the Genelecs from going to sleep. Any thoughts and hints would be greatly appreciated.
 
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FeddyLost

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would choose this one
They are expensive due to all this swiss manufacturing and you'd better listen them first. At least read opinions about their sound: they are very clear and slightly emotionless, so with RME result might be ... not exciting at all.
 
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