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Can you beat my option? KEF LS50 Wireless II + SVS SB-2000 Pro

Chromatischism

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Thank you for the options. The only unclear point to me then is what is the difference between the sound quality of an AVR and separate systems?
That is the part I have problem with. If is not a major difference, why people choose separates? AVRs have tons of features over the separate systems
People may choose separates for a more custom setup, where they can swap out individual components to change just that one part. In fact that is the same reason people cite when using a Preamp/Surround Processor and separate amps instead of a high-end AVR. They may just want to change out only the processor when new technologies come out and continue to use their amps.

However I'm not convinced there is an audible upgrade from changing the DAC/Preamp in say a Denon AVR to separates. The Denon AVR can be said to be neutral and transparent, with low distortion. In that sense any differences I think are A) placebo/expectation bias or B) the separate components have their own sound signature. That's not really desirable for my goals as I am of the conviction that speakers and EQ is where I should be making changes to my sound. Granted, I haven't used a separates setup, but I haven't seen the evidence showing their clear (audible) superiority. I have seen a lot of prose and audiophile hand-waving, but nothing convincing. So I use a Denon X4500H, and my system sounds amazing. :)
 

Chrispy

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Do you have the Speakers > Manual > Bass setting to "LFE" or "LFE + Main"?

What, I'm new at this? Never use LFE+Main myself.... (well, not never, I try it once in a while and then turn it off again :) ).
 
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Vahidhm

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For a large room and based on your budget of US$3300 ?

Kali IN-8 Revision II. - US$800 /pair
SVS SB-1000Pro x 2 - US$1000 /pair

Matrix Element i - US$1000 / each

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-element-i-usb-dac-streamer-review.10360/
https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/417.html

You have some money left to spare for fancy cables / stands. Plenty of power, plenty of flexibility.
As much as I love the measurements of the DAC, it sadly lacks some of the important features for me. HDMI input ability to use other streaming apps outside the Roon. I am going to read more about it to see if I can find some workarounds. Thanks
 

Chromatischism

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What, I'm new at this? Never use LFE+Main myself.... (well, not never, I try it once in a while and then turn it off again :) ).
Thanks, just wanted to check. I bet if you turned off your sub you would not get LFE from your speakers unless you set LFE + Main. At least that is how I understand the expected behavior.
 

Chrispy

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Thanks, just wanted to check. I bet if you turned off your sub you would not get LFE from your speakers unless you set LFE + Main. At least that is how I understand the expected behavior.

I believe mine will reroute LFE to L/R only....but it's been a while since I read that part of the manual nor did I experiment with that....and not sure that effect I was listening to was low enough where it would stand out as LFE in the speaker.... altho that makes me wonder what it does with the higher level LFE signal?
 

TimW

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First of all @Vahidhm, great job doing your research and picking out good components. Your system will no doubt sound better than the first several iterations of systems I put together which were mostly guided by YouTube reviewers and other audiophool forums. These people believe in all sorts of nonsense about the sound quality of electronics and for the most part AVRs sounding worse than separates is nonsense. Yes the AVRs tend to have worse distortion and noise performance but the reality is they're good enough to be audibly transparent in most real world scenarios. The really important things for good sound quality in a room is use of subs that are properly integrated with good crossovers and room correction. AVR's do that while simple DACs and preamps don't.

I owned the original LS50's for a while and like the sound with EQ based on Amir's measurements, but they only really shined in nearfield or a small room. In my living room they just never captivated me and it was a struggle to get a good subwoofer crossover even at higher crossover frequencies with DIY 8" subs. Personally I feel that for mid to large room sizes a two-way speaker must have a mid-woofer of at least 6 1/2" in size, and that's just to reach down to the high-pass filter. The LS50W II has a 5 1/4" mid-woofer with a hole in it, making it more like a 4". I would not be satisfied with the SPL and dynamic capabilities of a speaker like that in your space. I think a Denon AVR with ELAC DBR-62s and a good sub or two would be a better fit for your space.
 
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Vahidhm

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Can I just take a moment to point out that this is an excellent example of how to post a "newbie what should I buy" post. OP has already done some research, made some very good choices, shared his thoughts and challenged members for a better system for the money for his use case. Welcome to ASR!

There are many excellent alternatives already mentioned here. I would also like to suggest that if you are one that likes to research and upgrade from time to time, your proposed system minimizes this possibility. If you are looking for minimal footprint and a buy it once and forget it, then it's perfectly fine.

However, passive speakers and separate components will allow you more opportunities to take advantage of the newer products that come out often. If you are this type - that will still be reading about what else is out there even after buying your new system - then you may want to go this route so you can get the most out of this hobby.

I have bookshelves with 2 subs - highly recommend the bookshelf/subs route. If you are hesitant on how much to pay for subs, get the one good one, than later decide if you want to add another good one. Deep, accurate, properly integrated bass is addictive.
Cheers!
I truly appreciate your comment and 100% agree with what you said. When I was writing the first post of this thread, I wrote "no room for upgrade or not being flexible" as a CON for my option but then I removed it because I thought there are so many electronic products come as a close system and we don't simply care that much. The other thing is, what I was really interested to buy was actually the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 + passive speakers because it had everything I needed, good measurements and more flexible for upgrade and also great room correction. But after a few phone calls I figured out that they don't have any satisfactory support in the US and also it is a bit overpriced. I am going to list all of the mentioned options and evaluate them and then make the final decision based on that.
 

Chromatischism

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The really important things for good sound quality in a room is use of subs that are properly integrated with good crossovers and room correction. AVR's do that while simple DACs and preamps don't.
This is really important and I didn't mention it, but I'm 100% convinced that my sound would be much worse if I lost my room correction and multi sub integration by switching to separates. Purists just don't know what they are missing. Then there's the surround format decoding, and the multi-HDMI input switching, and streaming, and having only one remote, and...the list goes on.
 

TimW

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This is really important and I didn't mention it, but I'm 100% convinced that my sound would be much worse if I lost my room correction and multi sub integration by switching to separates. Purists just don't know what they are missing. Then there's the surround format decoding, and the multi-HDMI input switching, and streaming, and having only one remote, and...the list goes on.
Agreed those things are very important for sound quality and the purists and old school systems are really missing out, however I do not use an AVR. I use a miniDSP SHD for crossovers and room correction. My speakers are powered by vintage Sony ES amps. For TV sound I just connect my HDMI sources to the TV and use the optical output of that for audio. There are several modern preamps and integrated amps with the necessary features for great sound but bang for the buck and ease of use goes to AVR's so I tend to recommend them to newbies.
 

TimW

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So your TV decodes the Dolby Digital stream and sends it as PCM to the MiniDSP? And is this 2.1?
I just set the source to stereo PCM and the TV converts it to SPDIF, so just 2.0. I'm not really into games or movies so surround sound and LFE are not important to me.
 
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Vahidhm

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People may choose separates for a more custom setup, where they can swap out individual components to change just that one part. In fact that is the same reason people cite when using a Preamp/Surround Processor and separate amps instead of a high-end AVR. They may just want to change out only the processor when new technologies come out and continue to use their amps.

However I'm not convinced there is an audible upgrade from changing the DAC/Preamp in say a Denon AVR to separates. The Denon AVR can be said to be neutral and transparent, with low distortion. In that sense any differences I think are A) placebo/expectation bias or B) the separate components have their own sound signature. That's not really desirable for my goals as I am of the conviction that speakers and EQ is where I should be making changes to my sound. Granted, I haven't used a separates setup, but I haven't seen the evidence showing their clear (audible) superiority. I have seen a lot of prose and audiophile hand-waving, but nothing convincing. So I use a Denon X4500H, and my system sounds amazing. :)

I understand. but the cost of a good AVR makes the system more expensive (way more expensive if you want to add a separate power amp) than the LS50 WII and in terms of not being flexible, they are not the same but very close. the only benefit of AVR would be room correction and better sound for movies I think. (Considering that I am happy with 2.1 for movies and don't need surround and atmos). Therefore, I still think for my need, the all in one KEF LS50 WII is better than the AVR route.
 

Chromatischism

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It's hard to compare apples to apples on cost, because the LS50W doesn't have everything the AVR does. However, when I added up the Genelec 8030c and a $999 Denon AVR, the cost is about the same.
 
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Vahidhm

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First of all @Vahidhm, great job doing your research and picking out good components. Your system will no doubt sound better than the first several iterations of systems I put together which were mostly guided by YouTube reviewers and other audiophool forums. These people believe in all sorts of nonsense about the sound quality of electronics and for the most part AVRs sounding worse than separates is nonsense. Yes the AVRs tend to have worse distortion and noise performance but the reality is they're good enough to be audibly transparent in most real world scenarios. The really important things for good sound quality in a room is use of subs that are properly integrated with good crossovers and room correction. AVR's do that while simple DACs and preamps don't.

I owned the original LS50's for a while and like the sound with EQ based on Amir's measurements, but they only really shined in nearfield or a small room. In my living room they just never captivated me and it was a struggle to get a good subwoofer crossover even at higher crossover frequencies with DIY 8" subs. Personally I feel that for mid to large room sizes a two-way speaker must have a mid-woofer of at least 6 1/2" in size, and that's just to reach down to the high-pass filter. The LS50W II has a 5 1/4" mid-woofer with a hole in it, making it more like a 4". I would not be satisfied with the SPL and dynamic capabilities of a speaker like that in your space. I think a Denon AVR with ELAC DBR-62s and a good sub or two would be a better fit for your space.
Thank you for the good points. I have not thought or calculated the approximate SPL that would this system have in my room to see if these speakers would work or not. It is defiantly my laziness because I should be able to calculate it. I like the ELAC DBR62 and the new one Uni fi Reference that just came out looks even better. Hopefully we will see some measurements soon.
 

Ron Texas

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I'm using original LS50's in a 14'x18' room which is open to a short narrow hallway. The ceiling is a dormer with an average height of 7.5'. The setup is a 7' triangle. Two L12 subs crossed over at a relatively high 170 Hz. It can play loud in that room. I would call it a medium sized room in the US. I can't see how they would work well at 9' or 10' in a significantly larger room, especially if it had a high ceiling or opened into other spaces.

For active speakers which will play loud get the JBL LSR 708p. Otherwise, look at towers.
 
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Vahidhm

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It's hard to compare apples to apples on cost, because the LS50W doesn't have everything the AVR does. However, when I added up the Genelec 8030c and a $999 Denon AVR, the cost is about the same.

I am going to read more about the active speakers, these Genelec seems to have very good measurements, but they may not be the right choice for the room size (true for my KEF choice too). Seems there is some homework to do for me.
 
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